Synod: Final Draft on Latin Mass

“In a rebuff to the lone appeal in the Synod of Bishops in favor of the pre-Vatican II rite of Mass, the synod’s final message, set for approval tomorrow, contains no language on the subject.”
:frowning: :frowning:

Check out Report # 17 on the synod at:

nationalcatholicreporter.org/word/

This is indeed sad. :tsktsk:

  • Kathie :bowdown:

Well, at least the inter-communion idea seems to have been nixed…

This lost the report all credibility for me.

As for the TLM: Perhaps you should start asking, at the next WYD, how many prefer Novus Ordo? I guarantee that our young, like myself, once exposed to the Church’s TRADITION, will love it, and feel they have been denied a funamental portion of Catholicism.

I know I have. I cannot listen to “Catholic Latin Classics” without breaking down into tears. It’s all gone, just GONE! Replaced by modern rites which more resemble poorly-imitated Protestantism in a vain attempt to better “involve” the laity. I cannot get over it.

I cannot believe it is just…gone! :frowning: :nope::nope:

I frequently cry myself to sleep.

So, as far as “reaching out” to those “attached to the Old Liturgy”, perhaps you can bring it back.

Meaningless.

This synod was primarily concerned with the Eucharist, not the “pre-Vatican II rite” as the National Catholic Distorter refers to it.

Benedict will do what Benedict will do about the Mass, regardless of what this synod or house organs for the auto-demolition wing of the Church have to say.

[quote=Servus Pio XII]This lost the report all credibility for me.

As for the TLM: Perhaps you should start asking, at the next WYD, how many prefer Novus Ordo? I guarantee that our young, like myself, once exposed to the Church’s TRADITION, will love it, and feel they have been denied a funamental portion of Catholicism.

[/quote]

This shows a grave misunderstanding of what Tradition is.

When the TLM was mandated for the whole Church was that a departure from Tradition?

What about obedience and the fact that the Church can and does change the form of the Sacraments?

I do not believe your premise that the majority of youth at WYD would agree with you, After all, the Mass at WYD is the Mass of the Latin Church, not the TLM. And even if they did, they still are a minority of the Church and I bet they are even a minority of the youth in the Church. After all, not every youth can be at WYD nor can every diocese send every youth to it.

[quote=Servus Pio XII]http://www.nationalcatholicreporter.org/word/synod.jpg

This lost the report all credibility for me.

As for the TLM: Perhaps you should start asking, at the next WYD, how many prefer Novus Ordo? I guarantee that our young, like myself, once exposed to the Church’s TRADITION, will love it, and feel they have been denied a funamental portion of Catholicism.

I know I have. I cannot listen to “Catholic Latin Classics” without breaking down into tears. It’s all gone, just GONE! Replaced by modern rites which more resemble poorly-imitated Protestantism in a vain attempt to better “involve” the laity. I cannot get over it.

I cannot believe it is just…gone! :frowning: :nope::nope:

I frequently cry myself to sleep.

So, as far as “reaching out” to those “attached to the Old Liturgy”, perhaps you can bring it back.
[/quote]

See, this is where you loose my sympathy (and I generally support a generous application of the Indult). You call the Mass that led me into the Church “poorly imitated Protestantism” and a “vain attempt to involve the laity.” You’re very young, were you raised Protestant? I was. Nothing resembles the Pauline Mass in the Protestant world, except some vague similarities with the Eucharist of the Episcopal Church, which drew on the old Sarum Rite (a valid rite of the Church for centuries). No one in a Protestant Church of my experience stands to receive communion, contrary to radical traditionalists assertion that processional communion was a Protestant innovation. Presbyterians, Baptists, Church of Christ, the Assembly of God, et al, SIT to receive the Lord’s Supper, as they call it. Methodists and Episcopalians, usually kneel, unless it’s a diocesan convention. The Sign of Peace? Never happened in any protestant church of my experience, save the Episcopal. Lay reception of the Chalice? Ancient practice of the Church, as was reception in the hand (you don’t have to do either). You’ve read far to much radical traditionalist propaganda. You need to read real history, not made up garbage that has a Masonic conspiracy in every altar guild. You also know next to nothing about Protestants. And if you cry yourself to sleep at night, then you’re indulging in far too much self-drama.

[quote=Dr. Bombay]Meaningless.

This synod was primarily concerned with the Eucharist, not the “pre-Vatican II rite” as the National Catholic Distorter refers to it.

Benedict will do what Benedict will do about the Mass, regardless of what this synod or house organs for the auto-demolition wing of the Church have to say.
[/quote]

And I think there is good hope that the Holy Father will, in fact, attempt to broaden the access to the TLM. I think he feels very charitible to those who long for it. You’re right, he’ll do what he will do, but I think you have good cause for hope. Also, the National Catholic Reporter! Please…good for wrapping dead fish, that’s it.

[quote=JKirkLVNV]And I think there is good hope that the Holy Father will, in fact, attempt to broaden the access to the TLM. I think he feels very charitible to those who long for it. You’re right, he’ll do what he will do, but I think you have good cause for hope. Also, the National Catholic Reporter! Please…good for wrapping dead fish, that’s it.
[/quote]

Ahhh…hope! My second favorite primary theological virtue, right behind faith.

As you may have guessed, charity is a distant third with me. I’m so bad. :nope:

[quote=Dr. Bombay]Ahhh…hope! My second favorite primary theological virtue, right behind faith.

As you may have guessed, charity is a distant third with me. I’m so bad. :nope:
[/quote]

Not at all, not at all. Now me, well…

[quote=JKirkLVNV]See, this is where you loose my sympathy (and I generally support a generous application of the Indult). You call the Mass that led me into the Church “poorly imitated Protestantism” and a “vain attempt to involve the laity.” You’re very young, were you raised Protestant? I was. Nothing resembles the Pauline Mass in the Protestant world, except some vague similarities with the Eucharist of the Episcopal Church, which drew on the old Sarum Rite (a valid rite of the Church for centuries). No one in a Protestant Church of my experience stands to receive communion, contrary to radical traditionalists assertion that processional communion was a Protestant innovation. Presbyterians, Baptists, Church of Christ, the Assembly of God, et al, SIT to receive the Lord’s Supper, as they call it. Methodists and Episcopalians, usually kneel, unless it’s a diocesan convention. The Sign of Peace? Never happened in any protestant church of my experience, save the Episcopal. Lay reception of the Chalice? Ancient practice of the Church, as was reception in the hand (you don’t have to do either). You’ve read far to much radical traditionalist propaganda. You need to read real history, not made up garbage that has a Masonic conspiracy in every altar guild. You also know next to nothing about Protestants. And if you cry yourself to sleep at night, then you’re indulging in far too much self-drama.
[/quote]

I agree with you. I was brought up a Methodist and converted to the catholic faith and I see nothing in any Mass I have attended that resembles the communion in the Methodist church.

[quote=JKirkLVNV]See, this is where you loose my sympathy (and I generally support a generous application of the Indult). You call the Mass that led me into the Church “poorly imitated Protestantism” and a “vain attempt to involve the laity.” You’re very young, were you raised Protestant? I was. Nothing resembles the Pauline Mass in the Protestant world, except some vague similarities with the Eucharist of the Episcopal Church, which drew on the old Sarum Rite (a valid rite of the Church for centuries). No one in a Protestant Church of my experience stands to receive communion, contrary to radical traditionalists assertion that processional communion was a Protestant innovation. Presbyterians, Baptists, Church of Christ, the Assembly of God, et al, SIT to receive the Lord’s Supper, as they call it. Methodists and Episcopalians, usually kneel, unless it’s a diocesan convention. The Sign of Peace? Never happened in any protestant church of my experience, save the Episcopal. Lay reception of the Chalice? Ancient practice of the Church, as was reception in the hand (you don’t have to do either). You’ve read far to much radical traditionalist propaganda. You need to read real history, not made up garbage that has a Masonic conspiracy in every altar guild. You also know next to nothing about Protestants. And if you cry yourself to sleep at night, then you’re indulging in far too much self-drama.
[/quote]

Not really, you just don’t realise what it quite feels like. I found something I love, and know that it will never come back. Or is that just some stupid little petty thing.

I am not referring to the Pauline Mass itself with “poorly imitated protestantism” but the various departures from it that occur, that were conspicuously absent from the TLM.

Now, have you had three "EDIT"Protestants, one on e-mail, one direct, and one via phone ask you why no one else can receive your communion? If there were no similarity, why would they ask this.

[quote=Servus Pio XII]Not really, you just don’t realise what it quite feels like. I found something I love, and know that it will never come back. Or is that just some stupid little petty thing.

I am not referring to the Pauline Mass itself with “poorly imitated protestantism” but the various departures from it that occur, that were conspicuously absent from the TLM.

Now, have you had three blasted Protestants, one on e-mail, one direct, and one via phone ask you why no one else can receive your communion? If there were no similarity, why would they ask this.
[/quote]

I believe Pope Benedict will open things a little. Many bishops have not been obedient to the call of Pope John Paul II to make it more widely available. It would have been nice if the synod would have taken care of it. Lack of discussion of the issue, imho, shows that most bishops are not as concerned with those who long for it. This needs to change. It does not affec those who desire to attend N.O. Masses free of liturgical abuse, or N.O. Masses done very traditional, such as at my parish.

How many of those who long for the TLM would be grateful for a Novus Ordo celebrated very traditionally, in Latin, ad orientem, without the handshakes, and with a very high level of reverence. This suits me just fine.

I was born in 1962 and raised in the kum-ba-yah of the 70’s. I can honestly say that I have never experienced the Mass in all its splendor until I walked through the doors of Assumption Grotto parish in Detroit, where the Novus Ordo is celebrated Ad Orientem, and in Latin. More important than the Latin and Ad Orientem stance is that it was completely free of liturgical abuse. And, the pastor elects not to have the “sign of peace”. Communion is still delivered at a rail and it is intincted and distributed only by the parish priests (read that, no Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist)

All of this shocked me the first time I experienced it and I fell madly in love with it just a few days later.

What I am trying to say is that the TLM is not the only game in town that will enable you to feel the richness of the Mass. Way too many parishes are still practicing methods that amount to liturgical abuse. This is not the fault of the Novus Ordo, rather it is the fault of those who should know that they cannot make the Mass their own. It does not belong to them.

In short, hunt for a parish where the Novus Ordo is celebrated in a reverent, traditional manner. It looks like this:

Explore Diane Korzeniewski

Diane,

Is that a free-standing altar I see in the middle of the sanctuary? Does this mean that your parish celebrates the new Mass facing the people too?

[quote=Dr. Bombay]Diane,

Is that a free-standing altar I see in the middle of the sanctuary? Does this mean that your parish celebrates the new Mass facing the people too?
[/quote]

The free-standing altar was added prior to the current pastor. Fr. Eduard Perrone has been the pastor there since 1994, I believe. It was five years ago that he made the switch and began to gradually increase the use of Latin and I think more recently went to the ad orientem stance, along with the other priests in the parish. That center altar is used during the week, but the priests still stand facing the East at it. We use the main altar for the weekend Masses, or at least the 9:30 Latin Mass. It’s been awhile since I’ve attended any other. All Masses are celebrated ad orientem, whether in English or Latin. All weekday Masses at 7:30am and most 8:30am Masses (including Saturdays) are in Latin. The 7:00 pm daily mass is in English.

When I say “other priests”, we have a co-pastor, a visiting priest who is a Marist from Nigeria, and we have a holy order called the Order of Canons Regular of the Holy Cross. They operate on the grounds of Assumption Grotto (at the invitiation of Fr. Perrone) and often say Mass at one of the nearby parishes where the Indult is celebrated, as well as at the Grotto.

I’ve only been registered at the parish since June of this year and that happened just one month after I walked through the doors.

It’s home. :bowdown:

Oh, and we actually have processions every Sunday from Spring through Fall to the outdoor grotto where Benediction is held following the noon Mass. Our Corpus Christi procession had us there until 3:00 pm and Mass ended at 1:15. This doesn’t include our adoration chapel which is open daily from 9:00-7:00pm when benediction takes place.

These kinds of parishes are rare. They are booming with genuinely devout and reverent Catholics. This parish has changed my life.

My best friend is a member of the United Church of Christ. Some 30 years ago–this would be 1975 (I feel old) as a teen I went to her church as a member of our school choir (we used to go there, to the Catholic church, to the Episcopal church, and to the Methodist church–those were our “big four”.

Now granted it’s a few years back but I actually saved some of the church bulletins from then (I am such a pack rat) and since I moved recently I had been going through the “memory pile”.

Also, about 5 years ago when I was having my faith crisis, I sang regularly in the SAME United Church’s choir, two years straight.

So. . .here’s a protestant church which I attended 30 years ago and 3 years ago.

Any difference in the services?

Surprisingly, yes. Now remember, 1975 was only 6 years after the 1969 “change” so I still remembered the Latin Mass fairly well, AND the very earliest changes of the new mass.

The 1975 UCC service felt VERY different from the Catholic service. The whole format, the “call to worship”, much more “give-and-take”, only one communion Sunday per month, and the prayers themselves were shorter and much more “extemporaneous”.

Fast forward to 2000. I’ve had 25 years of Catholic masses starting with folk masses in 1975, the birth of hand holding, everyone around the altar after the great amen (everyone singing the doxology), gender inclusive language, the sign of peace --high five–apt, because it often took at least 5 minutes for everybody to roam the church and hug and kiss everybody else–, lots and lots of women and fewer and fewer men except the priest “on the altar”, communion in the hand, and yes, several years of “communion bread” recipes and even little wine cup individual servings in the late 70s at college.

And off I go to the UCC. But now. . .their readings in the lectionary are the same as ours. The sign of peace–even in the same spot during worship. Bread and wine. The prayers are much more “uniform”. The creed is the same, and, weirdest of all, they are actually singing hymns by the great masters including Palestrina in four part harmony with organ, while back at the Catholic Church we have a “keyboardist” who turns everything into Barry Manilow style music, including the obligatory “chord change” after the second verse and the glissando to end every single piece of music whether it is a hymn, the sanctus, or the “music to watch father elevate the host by”, and anywhere from 3 to 5 women who wander up and “sing along”, in unison, out of tune and often out of time.

PLEASE forgive me if any of this is uncharitable. I do not mean it to be. I am trying to be both accurate (sometimes the truth hurts) yet charitable, and I know the majority of these people are probably far holier than I, and certainly kinder. But I must try to convey as accurately as possible the things I experienced. Again, mea culpa if anything is mean or hurtful.

Suddenly, that UCC service seems far more similar to a Catholic mass of today than it did 30 years ago.
And while I have not been in the Episcopal church in town quite so often, and while the KJV type readings seemed more “old style” than our NAB, again, its service, especially in the prayer format, from the Kyrie to the Lamb of God, seems more similar too.

So, while I don’t know about the Mass being “protestantized”, I know that at least where I am (VT) and when (2005), the Mass in the towns I have lived is more similar to protestant services than I would have dreamed years ago.

Of course, some of this may be due to changes the protestants are making. Several of the ministers I know are surprisingly knowledgeable of the “old” Catholic faith and some of them (UCC churches are VERY individual, some of them are liberal and some would be quite comfortable in many ways at a Latin Mass) seem to be both receptive to and appreciative of the Catholic Mass.

Who can tell?

[quote=Lux_et_veritas]Many bishops have not been obedient to the call of Pope John Paul II to make it more widely available.
[/quote]

I keep hearing this accusation against bishops yet I see no proof offered except for the fact that there are not enough TLM’s offered in the opinion of the ones making the accusation.

Seems they forget that a community needs to be able to support itself. That if there are not enough parishioners attending the TLM and tithing to cover the costs of the facilities and the priest celebrating it, that there is no way to keep it going.

[quote=ByzCath]I keep hearing this accusation against bishops yet I see no proof offered except for the fact that there are not enough TLM’s offered in the opinion of the ones making the accusation.

Seems they forget that a community needs to be able to support itself. That if there are not enough parishioners attending the TLM and tithing to cover the costs of the facilities and the priest celebrating it, that there is no way to keep it going.
[/quote]

David, you know very well that many bishops have never allowed a TLM in their diocese. If a bishop allows a TLM at a fixed time, in a fixed location week after week and it is a Sunday Mass, then let the chips fall where they may. If there’s no interest and no support, drop it.

The problem I have is those bishops who won’t even give it a chance or allow it but schedule it at odd times in remote corners of the diocese. What are these guys afraid of I wonder?

[quote=Dr. Bombay]David, you know very well that many bishops have never allowed a TLM in their diocese. If a bishop allows a TLM at a fixed time, in a fixed location week after week and it is a Sunday Mass, then let the chips fall where they may. If there’s no interest and no support, drop it.

The problem I have is those bishops who won’t even give it a chance or allow it but schedule it at odd times in remote corners of the diocese. What are these guys afraid of I wonder?
[/quote]

And the Phoenix are is just one example of what happens when it is allowed to take place at a given parish or two. The people come.

I don’t know why so many people feel threatened with a few parishes in each diocese having the TLM. I don’t even know if I would like it. I know I like the traditional Novus Ordo as done at my parish. Let’s face it, in some diocese it is easier to catch a clown Mass or a Mass loaded with liturgical abuses than a reverent Novus Ordo.

:banghead:

While some may fault bishops for never having allowed a single indult, I have to also point out that in some dioceses there may not be a single priest volunteer to celebrate the old Mass. The Tridentine Rite would be like kryptonite to most of the priests I know in my diocese, which is probably why there is only one indult, and that in a remote corner basically into the next diocese with a great, tradition-minded bishop.

I don’t really buy the idea, though, that an indult Mass needs to form some sort of self-sustaining community with its “own” priest and facilities. The indult I attended in college was regularly attended by roughly 50 people or so, but it was at a Mass added with permission above the canonical limit by a parish priest who has always loved the traditional practices of the Church. The priest would have been at that parish regardless of the indult. Whatever offerrings came in were simply a bonus to the regular parish budget and upkeep. Even if ten people are attached to the old rite, I say if there is a priest willing to celebrate it for them in his parish we should take the necessary steps to make that happen, not place a financial burden on them that they can’t possibly be accepted to carry. Theirs is a legitimate aspiration. If a priest is willing to sacrifice for them, let him.

[quote=ByzCath]This shows a grave misunderstanding of what Tradition is.

When the TLM was mandated for the whole Church was that a departure from Tradition?

What about obedience and the fact that the Church can and does change the form of the Sacraments?

I do not believe your premise that the majority of youth at WYD would agree with you, After all, the Mass at WYD is the Mass of the Latin Church, not the TLM. And even if they did, they still are a minority of the Church and I bet they are even a minority of the youth in the Church. After all, not every youth can be at WYD nor can every diocese send every youth to it.
[/quote]

If by the TLM you mean the Missal of Pius V then no! It certainly was not a departure from tradition. It was essentially the Mass which had been developing in Rome for centuries. The other Rites of the Latin Church were similar and if they had been around for 200 years they were allowed to continue. Any more recent Rites would have been suspect because of the Reformation controversies.

As for your next point, it has never before been the practice of the Church to suppress an existing Rite and supplant it with a new one like the Novus Ordo. One need look no further than the book “Memories” written by the present Pope to gain authority for that statement.

What happened in the Western Church was roughly equivalent to replacing the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom with a new fabrication (again Pope Benedict’s word). I wonder how many Byzantine Catholics would go over to the Orthodox were that to happen. Maybe even you, ByzCath. You show an incredibly cavalier attitude towards a Rite (and it’s successor) which were never your own.

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