Synod of St Timothy


#1

I’m a wee bit puzzled here .

I’ve never heard of the Synod of St Timothy - can anyone enlighten me ?


#2

Well, it’s not Roman Catholic. The head is apparently a member of the “Old Catholics”, and is a married man.

Bishop Davis continues to serve as pastor of St. Clare of Assisi Mission, residing at the St. Clare Rectory & Oratory in nearby Hagerstown, IN, and he also serves as the interim presiding bishop for a daughter autocephalous jurisdiction known as the Christian Synod of St. Timothy, launched in November 2004 (Cf. website at www.christiansynod.org)).

Found the info on a Google, with a “diocese of Our Lady of Medjugore” site.


#3

it is not just “not Roman Catholic” it is not Catholic at all. it is the result of american ‘i want to be something.’ sorry if that sounds uncharitable, but the fact is that it is improper to mascarade as a something, when you are a something else.

put up a building, put up a sign, act the act…

there are a lot of people out there looking to be gratified. there are a lot of people out there looking to gratify them.

keep an eye out for the “Forgotten Rite of Philemon” because if i don’t get my way, that’s what i’m going to invent.


#4

[quote=JustSomeGuy]it is not just “not Roman Catholic” it is not Catholic at all. it is the result of american ‘i want to be something.’ sorry if that sounds uncharitable, but the fact is that it is improper to mascarade as a something, when you are a something else.
[/quote]

While I did not join this list to start or participate in any arguments, I do feel somewhat compelled to speak concerning this, especially since I am a member of the Synod.

According to St. Vincent of Lerins and the Creeds, we are perfectly Catholic. We lay no claims to be Roman Catholic, neither do we every plan to claim to be such, but the Churches in Communion with the Roman See do not hold any copyright to the term Catholic.

The Vatican has stated that the Church is truly operative in those churches which, in spite of their seperation from Rome, have apostolic succession and valid sacraments.

As far as American ‘I want to be something…’, I would suggest you actually talk to the various members of the Synod before making such a judgement.

put up a building, put up a sign, act the act…

Act the act? SIGH I haven’t spent seven years in the priesthood to simply ‘act the act’. I have a very wonderful ministry and I wouldn’t trade it for the world.

there are a lot of people out there looking to be gratified. there are a lot of people out there looking to gratify them.

Again, you have made an assumption without actually knowing ANYONE associated with the Synod. I’m certainly not looking to be gratified. I am looking to serve my Lord and the people in the hospital and in the parish.

keep an eye out for the “Forgotten Rite of Philemon” because if i don’t get my way, that’s what i’m going to invent.

Hrm… I assume that this is something of a dig at our Timothean Rite. Let’s see… the Religious Order that gave birth to the Synod is named for St. Timothy… the Synod… St. Timothy… we have a unique rite that, while western in origins, is still somewhat different. Is there another name that seems more appropriate? We are not attributing it to St. Timothy, we are dedicating it to him and his example.

Rob+


#5

[quote=FrRobSST]While I did not join this list to start or participate in any arguments, I do feel somewhat compelled to speak concerning this, especially since I am a member of the Synod.

[/quote]

Unfortunately the link provided by another poster doesn’t work for my computer: can you tell us more about your group? II am not quite sure what it is - is it a new rite? A new order? An ecumenical group? A what?

Thanks for any info you’d care to offer.


#6

[quote=HagiaSophia]Unfortunately the link provided by another poster doesn’t work for my computer: can you tell us more about your group? II am not quite sure what it is - is it a new rite? A new order? An ecumenical group? A what?

Thanks for any info you’d care to offer.
[/quote]

Basically we are a small group of clergy who are striving to follow the Ignatian model of Church Government, who are united together in professing the Apostles’ and Nicene Creeds, the Canon of St. Vincent of Lerins, and united together in biblical and liturgical faith.

We are not Roman Catholic, and we don’t claim to be united with Rome. We would not claim such a thing unless it were true.

Nevertheless, we have a few parishes, a hospital ministry, a hospice ministry, and some other things going on - including a Religious Order and an active Catechetical and Liturgical formation and development process. We are not large, and we aren’t trying to be. We aren’t interested in converting Roman Catholics, we are interested in a) witnessing to those who do not know God and b) witnessing to those who though knowing God reject the Catholic faith (i.e., protestants).

Again, though, we are not Roman, we don’t claim to be in communion with Rome, but as I said elsewhere, it’s hard to find a place to talk about the Catholic faith without being attacked - at least on religous message boards. You will never hear me supporting birth control, you’ll never hear me supporting divorce and remarriage, you’ll never hear me supporting gay marriage in the Church, you’ll never hear my advocating sloppy liturgy, or giving the Sacrament to people who do not believe in the Real Presence of Christ.

We really do share more in common than we differ on, and visiting here is more fufilling then being on general religious boards. Nevertheless, if all that is going to come of my membership here is threads such as this and the potential for animosity… then I’ll gladly unsubscribe.

Rob+


#7

[quote=FrRobSST]According to St. Vincent of Lerins and the Creeds, we are perfectly Catholic.
[/quote]

who? and what claim are you making?

We lay no claims to be Roman Catholic, neither do we every plan to claim to be such, but the Churches in Communion with the Roman See do not hold any copyright to the term Catholic.

it is understood that you are not roman catholic. but you distort the claim of being Catholic. given what i can discern about your so-called rite on the internet, you might have apostolic succession as far as a bishop’s ordination, etc. but that seems dubious, and needs to be investigated by someone with more time than me. who were these so-called bishops? what was there claim to succession? what difference would it make if my great uncle were the second cousin twice removed of the best friend of St. Pius X? what validity does that claim?

just because a bishop at some point in history ordained someone, who then ordained someone else, etc. doesn’t give you the right to say “hey i am Catholic.” i can’t even varify the succession you claim. as a matter of fact, the supreme court in this country has ruled that you are not allowed to use that term in such as way that it would be construed as ‘belonging to the Catholic Church’ when you are not.

are you in communion with Rome? if not, then state that fact. if you hold out some kind of hope to be in communion with Rome, as a result of inventing a rite acknowledging St. Timothy, what difference does that make? if i am a member of the rite of (st.) Philemon, what status would does that give me?

The Vatican has stated that the Church is truly operative in those churches which, in spite of their seperation from Rome, have apostolic succession and valid sacraments.

prove either claim that you imply here. this a convenient stretch of what the statement by the council actually is.

Act the act? SIGH I haven’t spent seven years in the priesthood to simply ‘act the act’. I have a very wonderful ministry and I wouldn’t trade it for the world.

there is no contradiction about your ministry to others. you may bring the Gospel to others. that is not the point. do you bring the fullness of the New Testament? was there not the One Church preached by Paul? i don’t mean to be un-ecumenical, but be careful about the truth about the One Church.

Hrm… I assume that this is something of a dig at our Timothean Rite. Let’s see… the Religious Order that gave birth to the Synod is named for St. Timothy… the Synod… St. Timothy… we have a unique rite that, while western in origins, is still somewhat different. Is there another name that seems more appropriate? We are not attributing it to St. Timothy, we are dedicating it to him and his example.

yes, your implied criticism of me is true. what are you talking about here? prove that this is not an invention on your part. when i invent it, my rite will be different too. and what would be wrong with me “dedicating” it to Philemon?

the point is, what would make you in communion? why you would pose as something that you are not?


#8

As stated earlier, I did not come here to argue. Likewise, I did not come here to be baited into an argument.

If you have questions concerning our Apostolic Succession and our claims to Catholicity, I suggest you contact our Bishop and take it up with him. His phone number may be found on our website, or you may PM me and I will give you his phone number.

As for using the term Catholic…

a) I have never claimed to be Roman Catholic,
b) I have not inferred that I am Roman Catholic,
c) The Supreme Court has stated that one cannot use the name Catholic as a way of trying to claim affilliation with the Roman Catholic Church. We make no such claim.
d) Even if the Supreme Court was to try to tell our group in general or me in particular that we were not allowed to call ourselves Catholic, then I would tell them that they’d have to euthanize me before I’ll stop. Given the state of our legal system in this so called ‘free country’ of ours, I wouldn’t put it past them.

Rob+

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#9

Could you provide a link where the supreme court has ruled such? I would find it surprising that the court would take any case dealing with religion especially the word catholic.

Communion with Rome makes one Roman Catholic, however there are many catholic (think big C and little c like all the discussions on Tradition and tradition)

Now to be reciprocal in regards to Fr. Rob’s statement

I would say you need to take a look at the Vatican document Dominus Jesus

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

Which states, and I quote


#10

[quote=FrRobSST]As stated earlier, I did not come here to argue. Likewise, I did not come here to be baited into an argument.

If you have questions concerning our Apostolic Succession and our claims to Catholicity, I suggest you contact our Bishop and take it up with him. His phone number may be found on our website, or you may PM me and I will give you his phone number.

As for using the term Catholic…

a) I have never claimed to be Roman Catholic,
b) I have not inferred that I am Roman Catholic,
c) The Supreme Court has stated that one cannot use the name Catholic as a way of trying to claim affilliation with the Roman Catholic Church. We make no such claim.
d) Even if the Supreme Court was to try to tell our group in general or me in particular that we were not allowed to call ourselves Catholic, then I would tell them that they’d have to euthanize me before I’ll stop. Given the state of our legal system in this so called ‘free country’ of ours, I wouldn’t put it past them.

Rob+

.
[/quote]

so the answer to the question “are you Catholic?” is “no” or “decline to state”?

why exactly would i expect your “bishop” to answer, if you will not?

thank God there is separation between between ‘real’ religion and state. is that it? i am allowing the possibility for you to claim to be Catholic, but not Roman Catholic. but you didn’t.

you should know that “Catholic” is applied to all the rites in communion with Rome. if the supreme court says that you should stop using “Catholic” in a way that implies that you are “rite” that is in communion with Rome, are they just not getting the point of ‘real’ catholicism? frankly, they can use what ever means they see fit to get you to stop deceiving people anywhere and everywhere with your false honorific.


#11

[quote=JustSomeGuy]so the answer to the question “are you Catholic?” is “no” or “decline to state”?

why exactly would i expect your “bishop” to answer, if you will not?

thank God there is separation between between ‘real’ religion and state. is that it? i am allowing the possibility for you to claim to be Catholic, but not Roman Catholic. but you didn’t.

you should know that “Catholic” is applied to all the rites in communion with Rome. if the supreme court says that you should stop using “Catholic” in a way that implies that you are “rite” that is in communion with Rome, are they just not getting the point of ‘real’ catholicism? frankly, they can use what ever means they see fit to get you to stop deceiving people anywhere and everywhere with your false honorific.
[/quote]

oops my bad. i didn’t mean anyone should be killed. i didn’t read it that way when i first wrote it. i’m just saying that it is valid for the law to protect the Church from those who would pretend to titles. short of euthanizing you, i support any effort of the court in this regard.


#12

[quote=JustSomeGuy]so the answer to the question “are you Catholic?” is “no” or “decline to state”?

why exactly would i expect your “bishop” to answer, if you will not?

thank God there is separation between between ‘real’ religion and state. is that it? i am allowing the possibility for you to claim to be Catholic, but not Roman Catholic. but you didn’t.

you should know that “Catholic” is applied to all the rites in communion with Rome. if the supreme court says that you should stop using “Catholic” in a way that implies that you are “rite” that is in communion with Rome, are they just not getting the point of ‘real’ catholicism? frankly, they can use what ever means they see fit to get you to stop deceiving people anywhere and everywhere with your false honorific.
[/quote]

I’ll answer since I am loosely associated with them. Yes they are catholic, just not Roman Catholic, nor are they Eastern Catholic, or Polish Catholic, nor Byzantine Catholic, but they are indeed catholic.

Again, is there a link to the Supreme court ruling about the use of the word catholic? I would really like to study that case.


#13

[quote=JustSomeGuy]so the answer to the question “are you Catholic?” is “no” or “decline to state”?

why exactly would i expect your “bishop” to answer, if you will not?
[/quote]

Uh, I must have missed you asking that question.

We are Catholic. We are not Roman Catholic. We are not in communion with the Roman See.

thank God there is separation between between ‘real’ religion and state. is that it? i am allowing the possibility for you to claim to be Catholic, but not Roman Catholic. but you didn’t.

Because you never directly asked the question.

you should know that “Catholic” is applied to all the rites in communion with Rome. if the supreme court says that you should stop using “Catholic” in a way that implies that you are “rite” that is in communion with Rome, are they just not getting the point of ‘real’ catholicism?

The Supreme Court of the United States has no competence to deterime what makes or makes not a religious body. To attempt to do so is a violation of our supposed ‘freedom of religion’ in the United States.

frankly, they can use what ever means they see fit to get you to stop deceiving people anywhere and everywhere with your false honorific.

So, you would empower SCOTUS with power over religious bodies? Okay, how about ordering the Eastern Orthodox, the Presbyterians, and others to take the word Catholic out of their books in the Nicene and Apostles’ Creeds. Why not! It could be a deception-in-process.

You may disagree with my faith or elements of my belief and/or practice, but you do not have right over my freedom - given not by a nation but by God - to practice my faith as I see fit. I am a Catholic, a Primitive Catholic, holding to the Scriptures, the Creeds, and the writings of the Ancient Church. This is where I stand. Period.

Rob+


#14

[quote=FrRobSST]Basically we are a small group of clergy who are striving to follow the Ignatian model of Church Government, who are united together in professing the Apostles’ and Nicene Creeds, the Canon of St. Vincent of Lerins, and united together in biblical and liturgical faith.
[/quote]

Then are you saying you are somewhat like an “oratory” of priests?

[quote=FrRobSST]We are not Roman Catholic, and we don’t claim to be united with Rome. We would not claim such a thing unless it were true.

Nevertheless, we have a few parishes, a hospital ministry, a hospice ministry, and some other things going on - including a Religious Order and an active Catechetical and Liturgical formation and development process. We are not large, and we aren’t trying to be. We aren’t interested in converting Roman Catholics, we are interested in a) witnessing to those who do not know God and b) witnessing to those who though knowing God reject the Catholic faith (i.e., protestants).
[/quote]

Please pardon my questions but I cannot access through that link provided so I am asking blind so to speak. Your work sounds admirable but I am trying to figure out if you aren’t Roman Catholic, and you aren’t another rite, and you aren’t in communion with the pope, where do your orders come from?

And as an aside, I am going to ask the moderator if you don’t mind to move this thread to Non-Catholic which is where most of the other rites, other churches and ecumenists kind of “hang out” - they are bit more tolerant up there (most of the time anyway) as your group is of interest to me not having heard of it before this and I am hopeful you will find the forum a good place to share your work and your Christian experience. We’re really out of place in the Liturgy and Sacrments forum so to speak.

[quote=FrRobSST]Again, though, we are not Roman, we don’t claim to be in communion with Rome, but as I said elsewhere, it’s hard to find a place to talk about the Catholic faith without being attacked - at least on religous message boards.
[/quote]

You can say that again as most of us know. :rolleyes:

[quote=FrRobSST]We really do share more in common than we differ on, and visiting here is more fufilling then being on general religious boards. Nevertheless, if all that is going to come of my membership here is threads such as this and the potential for animosity… then I’ll gladly unsubscribe.
[/quote]

As far as I am concerned you have been polite civil and responsive. I see no reason for you to unscubscribe and I’d give it a go here - many fine people -


#15

Moving the thread would be fine.

Also, the problem is that the link posted by an earlier poster is incorrect.

www.christiansynod.org

Rob+


#16

[quote=gelsbern]Could you provide a link where the supreme court has ruled such? I would find it surprising that the court would take any case dealing with religion especially the word catholic.
[/quote]

while i can’t quote case law, i know that the Church has won rights in this regard. lawyers that view the forums can correct me on this, but i trust people who have informed me on this.

Communion with Rome makes one Roman Catholic, however there are many catholic (think big C and little c like all the discussions on Tradition and tradition)

well, i may not know much, but i know that that is wrong. communion with rome makes one Catholic. being of the Roman Rite in communion with rome, makes one Roman Catholic. the word in front of the designation “Catholic” signifies the rite which the person is a member of. thus “timothean catholic” signifies nothing.

btw, i thought that the statement that the “church is operative” etc, referred to the vatican ii statement that the Holy Spirit is found active outside the Catholic Church. thanks for the Dominus Iesus quote. however, that doesn’t meet the question and show any reason to answer yes to any position of validity.

I’ll answer since I am loosely associated with them. Yes they are catholic, just not Roman Catholic, nor are they Eastern Catholic, or Polish Catholic, nor Byzantine Catholic, but they are indeed catholic.

you do not understand the meaning of Catholicity, which is essentually meaningless if you spell it with a small ‘c’. small c says something about universality (openness) to people and inclusion of all doctirne. it is a matter of doctrine that communion with rome is required to be both catholic and Catholic.

would you like to explain the distinction you are making?


#17

I believe the case that is being referred to is one where an independent Catholic Church in Florida had taken the name “Saint Teresa of Calcutta Catholic Church” and on their sign had set of Mass times that said something like, “Roman Rite Mass - 8:00 AM, Anglican Rite Mass - 9:00 AM, Charismatic Mass - 10:30 AM”.

As I recall, this case went to the Florida Supreme Court who deemed that stating that a Roman Rite Mass was offered constituted a potential for misrepresentation.

As a result, the congregation removed the sign and - under pressure from other groups - changed their name from Saint Teresa of Calcutta to Charitas Independent Catholic Church. I do recall hearing of this.

I recall hearing of another case wherein the Georgia Supreme Court ordered an Independent Catholic Church in Atlanta to specifically state “We are not affiliated with the Roman Catholic Church” on their sign.

Rob+


#18

[quote=JustSomeGuy]so the answer to the question “are you Catholic?” is “no” or “decline to state”?
[/quote]

It appears to me that he has “stated” as you put it at least three times now.

[quote=JustSomeGuy]thank God there is separation between between ‘real’ religion and state. is that it? i am allowing the possibility for you to claim to be Catholic, but not Roman Catholic. but you didn’t.
[/quote]

So then why criticize him? - he made a point of saying several times now that he is not affiliated nor in communion with Rome. I think that’s clear enough.

[quote=JustSomeGuy]you should know that “Catholic” is applied to all the rites in communion with Rome. if the supreme court says that you should stop using “Catholic” in a way that implies that you are “rite” that is in communion with Rome, are they just not getting the point of ‘real’ catholicism? frankly, they can use what ever means they see fit to get you to stop deceiving people anywhere and everywhere with your false honorific.
[/quote]

You should know that the term “catholic” is used by a variety of churches which in no way are in communion with Rome. There are for instance, the Polish National Catholics, the Old Catholics, the Orthodox Old Catholics–the word means universal and while commonly Catholic means Roman or Eastern Rite other churches do use it. That’s how it is.

I always remember the famous quote of James Joyce, when you say “catholic” here comes everybody,

We have a newcomer to the forum, why not say hello and welcome the person – why not talk with hiim? Sheesh!


#19

[quote=JustSomeGuy].
you do not understand the meaning of Catholicity, which is essentually meaningless if you spell it with a small ‘c’. small c says something about universality (openness) to people and inclusion of all doctirne. it is a matter of doctrine that communion with rome is required to be both catholic and Catholic.

would you like to explain the distinction you are making?
[/quote]

Well I will try. Catholicism, (universality) has nothing to do with being unversally open to all people, or doctrines. What it means in the case of the church is that where ever you go universally, a catholic church has the same core beliefs, mainly those beliefs in the Nicene Creed, and the church is made up by the faithful who believe the same thing. That is where the univerality of catholic comes from… The universal church is not limited to just Rome. You will notice the Nicene creed says nothing at all about communion with Rome.


#20

[quote=FrRobSST]Moving the thread would be fine.

Also, the problem is that the link posted by an earlier poster is incorrect.

www.christiansynod.org

Rob+
[/quote]

Ah thank you - the one you provided works perfectly. I can now “read up”::slight_smile:


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