that does it for me


#1

Just when I was started to think that all the Catholics on this forum were right about the Catholic Church this happened.

I was listening to CAL and a called ask the question, "Will people of other religions go to heaven. Rosalind Moss answered his question and her answer really shocked me. She said that as long as they lived up to the graces that God has given them, no matter weather they are a Muslim , a Hindu, a Buddhist, or a Jew that they will go to heaven. Unbibleical to say that least.

That totally changes my mind about the Catholic Church.

Allischalmers


#2

I think Rosalind Moss was probably stating her opinion, frankly, it’s not up to the Church to decide who goes to Heaven or Hell, that’s Daddy’s job.

However I don’t think it’s impossible for a righteous Muslim, Morman, Buddist, ect. to enter the eternal kingdom. When faced with Truth, in judgement, being unable to lie in the face of Truth, we can only pray that they will appeal to the good God’s Divine Mercy.

And it’s not unbiblical:
“Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.” (Matt. 19:25-26 ) PRAISE THE LORD!!!

God Bless
-Nate


#3

I know you dont believe the indians went to hell.

(Heb 11:6) God rewards those who onestly seek him. thats biblical.

Jesus died for everyones sins 1 Jn 2:2

Jesus threw the holy spirit works even outside the visible structure of the church.
Gods love excludes no one Mt 18:14
God wills everyone to be saved (1Tim 2:4) THIS IS WHY THE INDIANS THAT DID NOT KNOW JESUS still got a shot at heaven.

even in non christians the holy spirit is present this is how people experence Christ even without fully knowing him we know this because we believe in the trinity. (1 cor 12:7-11) to each individual the manifestation of the spirit is given for some benifit, some wisdom, some good deeds, some healing.

you should be able to see Jesus in these people because it is Jesus working threw them. There is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ.

(Rom 2:13-17) for it is not those who hear the law who are justified in the sight of God rather those who observe the law will be justified.

remember these people are seeking the truth it is up to us to show them the truth. But God will not condemn someone who is looking for him


#4

One Catholic phrases her answer to a theological question poorly and you’re ready to chuck the whole Church? Wow. Yeah, I’d say you have a bit more prayer and discernment to do before you make a decision.

Trust me, if you DO decide to come into full communion with the Church, you’ll see a lot worse than that! :o


#5

Let’s start with a most fundamental question. Do you, Allischalmers, desire that all those non-Christians who have lived up to the graces God has given them, gain heaven?

I know I do.


#6

I recommend reading Dominus Iesus for a summary and reiteration of the Church’s teaching regarding the necessity of Christ and the Church for salvation.

Here’s a partial quote:

The Church is the “universal sacrament of salvation”,79 since, united always in a mysterious way to the Saviour Jesus Christ, her Head, and subordinated to him, she has, in God’s plan, an indispensable relationship with the salvation of every human being.80 For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit”;81 it has a relationship with the Church, which “according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit”.82

  1. With respect to the way in which the salvific grace of God — which is always given by means of Christ in the Spirit and has a mysterious relationship to the Church — comes to individual non-Christians, the Second Vatican Council limited itself to the statement that God bestows it “in ways known to himself”.83 Theologians are seeking to understand this question more fully. Their work is to be encouraged, since it is certainly useful for understanding better God’s salvific plan and the ways in which it is accomplished. However, from what has been stated above about the mediation of Jesus Christ and the “unique and special relationship”84 which the Church has with the kingdom of God among men — which in substance is the universal kingdom of Christ the Saviour — it is clear that it would be contrary to the faith to consider the Church as one way of salvation alongside those constituted by the other religions, seen as complementary to the Church or substantially equivalent to her, even if these are said to be converging with the Church toward the eschatological kingdom of God.

Really, the whole things should be read (along with Lumen Gentium and others) for a good understanding of what the Church teaches.

Of course, the Catechism summarizes all this, too.

While I didn’t hear what Rosalind Moss said, my guess would be that she was trying to emphasize that all grace comes from Christ through the Church and that, therefore, responding to grace is responding to Christ even if it is in a way unknown to those who are not Christians.


#7

In the Father’s house there are many rooms.


#8

So are you saying that if they live up to the graces that God has given them, they will go to hell?


#9

Maybe she watered down Catholic belief a little, or didn’t think she had the time to clearly explain it.

All people are saved only through Jesus who died on the Cross for them.

God has the ability to make His truth know to everyone we don’t know how much truth the Aborigine has when he died 1000 years ago but I believe that God has the power to convey His truth to the guy and give him a chance to accept Him.
God wants every man to have a chance to accept the truth of Christ, but He also wants us not to just sit on our butts and wait for him to spread the truth.

He wants us to do everything possible to convert people and bring them to Christ.

God Bless
Scylla


#10

The correct answer is "That as long as they lived up to the graces that God has given them, no matter weather they are a Muslim , a Hindu, a Buddhist, or a Jew that they will have the possibility of going to heaven, if they in fact do not outright know and reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


#11

St Peter said that Christ descended into Hades to preach to those who had been waiting since the days of …who? …Noah!. Thats a lot of people.
Where our priest’s and bishop’s jobs end, spreading His Gospel through the Catholic Church, Gods job begins in full, - we do the possible with His help and He does what is impossible for us to do. Yes?


#12

That one statement totally changes your mind? Could you be more specific as to what you think/feel is unbiblical about it?

God Bless,
Maria


#13

By the way you posted it, allis, it sounds like Ms Moss may have stated things just a wee tad broadly, perhaps for lack of time or perhaps for assuming that her audience understood the finer points.

I trust you’re fine with the idea of those who are literally ignorant of Christ and his message, but are nonetheless exceptionally good people, going to heaven? Adam, Enoch, Abraham, Elijah, King David, the Amazon natives of Christ’s time and all the rest?

What Ms Moss was getting at, in not the best way, is that we can’t read minds or hearts, we can’t know exactly why anyone who appears to reject Christ’s message would do so. And even today we can see, simply from those of other faiths who come onto these boards if nothing else, that there is still so very much miseducation and misinformation spread about Christianity.

So it’s not for us, who don’t know minds and hearts, assign any individual person or persons to eternal damnation. Simply to assign them instead to God’s mercy and hope and pray for mercy and salvation for each and every one of them, as we hope to be shown mercy and saved ourselves, for we have all sinned.


#14

Hi Allischalmers, their doctrine is known as “invincible ignorance”, it is exactly “Christian inclusivism” that has infected some protestant churches.

google.com/search?hl=en&q=invincible+ignorance+catholic&btnG=Search

faithnet.org.uk/Theology/inclusivism.htm

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

romancatholicism.org/jansenism/tradition-eens2.htm

catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9907chap.asp

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=1203

newadvent.org/cathen/07648a.htm

A Three-Pronged Defense
of Salvific Exclusivism
in a World of Religions
by Brad Johnson
wri.leaderu.com/theology/salvific.html

google.com/search?hl=en&q=inclusivism+invisible+ignorance+pluralism+exclusivism

c-b-f.org/start.php?CONTID=05_02_05_03_04_00&LANG=en

catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0207bt.asp

The Catechism of the Catholic Church
Use your browser’s Back button to return to the previous page.

Search on “isalm muslim” with “OR” operator.

1 matching paragraph found.
Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Paragraph 3, SubSection 3, Heading 4

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” 330

christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/church3.html

amnation.com/vfr/archives/007512.html


#15

I’m guessing that allischalmers won’t find this too comforting, since I’m also guessing that you don’t believe any non-Catholics can be saved. At least, a Catholic who held your views would not believe he could be saved.

Correct me if I’m wrong.


#16

Actually, I think she worded it brilliantly. The key is in the phrase “lived up to the graces God has given them.” If that grace included the grace to know that the Catholic Church was Christ’s true Church then they would be Catholic or they would not have lived up to God’s graces. If that grace included the grace to know that Christ is Son, Lord, Savior, Redeemer and Bridegroom, then they would be Christian or they would not have lived up to God’s graces.

The same for any other “yeah, but…”. If God gave them the grace to comprehend the issue in question, whatever it is, then by definition, those who lived up to those graces have not rejected God over that issue.


#17

This view is hugely problematic.

With this view the desire to evangelize is greatly diminished and that is what we see from many Catholics today, IMO. Why evangelize people that can already be forgiven and be saved following whatever religion they already do…even if that religion boldly rejects Jesus Christ?

If this was true, it would not be “believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved” but “live up to the graces you have been given and you will be saved.”

We find that nowhere in the entirety of God’s Word.

What we find in Scripture is that the world is full of sinners that need to believe the Gospel and be saved.

Telling idolators that they can be saved by just being who they already are is extremely dangerous and alien to the purpose of the Gospel, IMV.

There is no need to preach that message to non-Christians because they already hear that message from their own faiths.


#18

Atemi,

I think you misunderstand what’s being said. There is no suggestion that simply being a Muslim, Hindu, or anything else means that a person will get to heaven. No one knows the disposition of a person’s heart in their search for God. Likewise, we do not know what God offers a person in the way of grace at the moment of their death. Rosalind Moss was merely stating that it is possible for someone who is not a Christian to enter heaven by way of God’s mercy and grace.

Neither Rosalind Moss nor the Catholic Church is suggesting anything about the likelyhood or odds of salvation for a non-Christian. The statement is merely about the possibility. Naturally, we still need to be highly motivated in our efforts to evangelize. Both Rosalind Moss and the Catholic Church have made that point many times.

Likewise, we do not evangelize non-Christians by telling them that everything is Okay with where they are. Instead, we present them with truth. If they knowingly reject the truth they cannot be saved.


#19

?

If this was true, it would not be “believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved” but “live up to the graces you have been given and you will be saved.”

We find that nowhere in the entirety of God’s Word.

What we find in Scripture is that the world is full of sinners that need to believe the Gospel and be saved.

Telling idolators that they can be saved by just being who they already are is extremely dangerous and alien to the purpose of the Gospel, IMV.

There is no need to preach that message to non-Christians because they already hear that message from their own faiths.So then according to you theological gymnasts, (who have all the answers just from your reading of the Bible…) just because some people somewhere cannot read the Bible for themselves and have no Bibles, nor “witnesses”, they are doomed to hell?

Let’s have a look at what the New Testament says…

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.

Acts Of Apostles 17:27 That they should seek God, if happily they may feel after him or find him, although he be not far from every one of us: (Especially relevant)

It’s too bad that your theology does not align with the Word of God and in fact presumes to tell all the world who God will and will not save and what those who never see a Bible are going to face.

This is the kind of presumption that results from people saying that they know all there is to know about God just from reading the Bible. This is also pretty much the same Pharisaical attitude that is displayed (and condemned) all through the New Testament. There is no mercy nor compassion in it.

James 2:13: For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy; yet mercy triumphs over judgment.


#20

No. I am not misunderstanding. I nowhere said that.

What I am saying is this:

If a Hindu ever asks a Catholic if the Church teaches that he can be saved as a Hindu, the Catholic can only emphatically say “Sure.”

This is not the Apostolic method.

The Apostolic method is “repent and be baptised.”

Merely telling someone that “the odds” are better that they will be saved if they are Catholic is not evangelization.


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