The Answer to Catholicism - Right in God's Word


#1

I’ve been reading, searching for the “true” religion of the world, and while it may be Christianity, it most definitely is not Catholicism.

But let me say something first… I know that no matter what I say, you will have something to defend your religion, but please, just consider it, and think, what would Jesus do?

I believe that the Catholic Church has made SO many wrong choices. It has made SO many people believe false truths. We have done so much, and yet, because we don’t want to admit we are wrong, are ignorant and blind to the Truth. Here is what I have managed to collect and understand recently.

Well, there is just too much for me to write. I mean, come on!

How can you defend the Inquisition? Would Christ have allowed such a thing?

Popes claim to be Christ on Earth, the vicars of God. Popes in the past, in the "Dark Ages (when the Church was at the height of its power… such an interesting title for what should be Christ’s most influential times on Earth) have claimed that the whole world and all of existence is theirs, and anyone who denies it or doesn’t pay the Church taxes can be excommunicated and thrown into torture chambers.

To even TRY to defend Catholics’ WORSHIP of Mary and Saints is a complete joke. Venerate means the same thing as worship, and in your hear

Reading about the Church and the tortures it allowed throughout… well, most of it’s history, are more painful than the people who actually underwent such gruesome tragedies. Boiled alive in hot oil? Burned alive at the stake? Having your flesh peeled off? And the people allowing such atrocities are supposed to be the mediators of Christ?

Popes have claimed power and dominion over everything, even Alexander VI said that he owned all unexplored lands.

Jesus taught that we shouldn’t build up gold and jewels on the Earth, because our treasure is in Heaven. Have you seen how much gold and jewels the Catholic Church has?!

“in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication” (Revelation 17:4)

What are the colors of priests of the Catholic Church? I know my “Father” wears those colors a lot, not to mention the gold and jewels. And we shouldn’t call our leaders “father” either. Sure, Peter may have said that he has become a “father” to the people, but that doesn’t mean we should call them “fathers,” especially when GOD told us not to!

Look what the Catholic Encyclopedia has to say about chalices…

“[It is] the most important of the sacred vessels… [It] may be of gold or silver, and if the latter, then the inside must be surfaced with gold.”

What the?! Did Revelations not just a describe a golden cup, covererd with abominations? How can we be so ignorant!?

“The pectoral cross [suspended by a chain around the neck and worn over the breast by abbots, bishops, archbishops, cardinals, and the pope] should be made of gold and … decorated with gems …”

Come on… that’s just not right, and you know it. What did Jesus say about building up treasures again?

Most of the RCC’s wealth was attained through confiscation of heretics, after they were finished torturing and killing them because they wouldn’t admit that the Pope was the ulimate power of the world.

And about indulgences… I hear we still sell them today in parts of the world. This is one of the worst things I think the Church has ever done. Give us money and we’ll get you out of Purgatory? What’s wrong with you people!

The Church needs celibacy, yet Peter and MANY POPES were married, some even with multiple wives!? What a hypocritical bunch of people…

Revelations says the woman will be drunk with blood of martys. Think of all the people the RCC tortured and killed during the Inquistion, because they were practicing Christianity the RIGHT way.

Revelations says the “whore” and “the city” has had reigning power over the kings of the Earth. Who has had more power than anyone to ever exist in the history of existance!? THE POPES!

Rome is a city built on seven hills, much like Revelations describes. Let’s face it. Catholicism is wrong.

I could go on and on, but this is enough for now. You all said that God and Christ would lead me back to Catholicism. Honestly, I can’t follow Catholicism and love Christ with my heart. You know why I liked Catholicism? I liked the decorated Cathedrals, I liked the jewels on my Rosary, I liked the words, the clothes, the pomp, the rituals, the artwork, the gold, the history, the order, the everything, except one thing: Jesus Christ.

Without him, Christianty does not exist. For these reasons, and many more, I no longer can believe what the Catholic Church teaches or believes. If you read all that… thanks.


#2

You can’t be serious. Is this a joke? Even if you just fell off the turnip truck, you’ve hung around here long enough to have “regular member” under your name. Surely you’ve had a chance to see the error in all of the things you said.

Your profile says Catholic. Were you raised Catholic? Where on earth did you start missing the obvious and start believing all that hogwash?? :confused:


#3

:yawn: Same old same old.

Wake me up when you have an original thought that hasn’t been thoroughly refuted in these forums and elsewhere billions of times.

:sleep:


#4

I will only deal with a few of your misconceptions. First of all, I would like to say, you really need to research what Catholicism teaches.

First lets deal with this comment.

To even TRY to defend Catholics’ WORSHIP of Mary and Saints is a complete joke. Venerate means the same thing as worship, and in your hear.

I suggest you look up the words Latria, dulia, and hyperdulia. These are three different words used by the Catholic Church that explain the worship and honor given to God, saints, and Mary respectively.

The word “Latria” designates honor that is given to God alone. It is properly called worship in the common sense of the word. It is due to him because of who He is, just because He is.

“Dulia” is honor that is given to saints. It is lower than Latria and can not be called worship in the modern sense of the word. It is given to the saints in reference to God and is given because of God.

“Hyperdulia” is a high form of “dulia” that is accorded to Mary due to her special place which was given to her by God. This honor is given to her in reference to God and because of God.

Saints and Mary recieve nothing on their own behalf. It is all due to God that we honor saints.

Here is what the Catholic Encyclopedia says.

Latria
Dulia

Here is another article.

Do we worship Mary?

Second

Rome is a city built on seven hills, much like Revelations describes. Let’s face it. Catholicism is wrong.

What does it matter how many hills Rome was built on? The Vatican is not in Rome. The Vatican is its own country outside of Rome. In fact, I think there is a river between Rome and Vatican city. It is a moot point.

I think you need to do some more research with some more reliable sources.

Catholic Church the whore of Babylon?

Revelations says the woman will be drunk with blood of martys. Think of all the people the RCC tortured and killed during the Inquistion, because they were practicing Christianity the RIGHT way.

You need to think through your comments. If you want to accuse the Catholics of torturing Christians, make sure that those same people did not do the same. For example, the KKK was founded by protestants. In the 1920’s they added Catholics to their list of hated enemies. Protestants also tortured Catholics at the time of the reformation.

Second, just because some Catholics have done evil does not affect the truth of Catholicism. There are evil men in every religion.

Next, you have not proved your final statement about them practicing “the RIGHT way”, so the arguement means nothing. Look at the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom from the 4th century. Look at the Liturgy of St James from the 4th century. These are Catholic Liturgies and no protestants use them or anything that resembles them. Early Liturgy and worship resembled Catholic Liturgy.

Look at what St. Justin, St. Irenaeus and Tertullian say about Mary as the New Eve. These are all 2nd century Christians expressing strictly Catholic doctrines.


#5

Allow me to answer your charges in suitable detail:

You’re wrong.

I mean, come on!


#6

I have to agree with the others on here, these arguements have all been broght up several times and it is nothing new. I love how you start your post,

“I know that no matter what I say, you will have something to defend your religion”.

What were not supposed to defend ourselves?


#7

Let’s for a moment say there is no defense of Inquistion. All this would prove is that Catholics are capable of sin. The Church has never taught differently.

Popes claim to be Christ on Earth, the vicars of God.

No. Christ’s representative on earth. Big difference.

Popes in the past, in the "Dark Ages (when the Church was at the height of its power… such an interesting title for what should be Christ’s most influential times on Earth) have claimed that the whole world and all of existence is theirs, and anyone who denies it or doesn’t pay the Church taxes can be excommunicated and thrown into torture chambers.

This is too convoluted to comment on. Do you have a specific “Dark Age” quote we could examine?

To even TRY to defend Catholics’ WORSHIP of Mary and Saints is a complete joke. Venerate means the same thing as worship, and in your hear

Stated without any supporting argument. I guess we’ll move on…

Reading about the Church and the tortures it allowed throughout… And the people allowing such atrocities are supposed to be the mediators of Christ?

Answered in your first question. The Church has never claimed impeccability for its members. I’ll grant it is disgraceful and a major stumbling block, but does not in any way disprove Church’s claims.

Popes have claimed power and dominion over everything, even Alexander VI said that he owned all unexplored lands.

I’d need a specific quote to comment on.

Jesus taught …

“in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication” (Revelation 17:4)

What are the colors of priests of the Catholic Church? …

Look what the Catholic Encyclopedia has to say about chalices…

Come on… that’s just not right, and you know it. What did Jesus say about building up treasures again?

This is like three objections in one which I won’t take the time to extract at the moment. (I may come back to it later, or someone else can answer)

Most of the RCC’s wealth was attained through confiscation of heretics, after they were finished torturing and killing them because they wouldn’t admit that the Pope was the ulimate power of the world.

In the worst case scenario, this would be the same answer as to your first question.

And about indulgences… I hear we still sell them today in parts of the world. This is one of the worst things I think the Church has ever done. Give us money and we’ll get you out of Purgatory? What’s wrong with you people!

Supporting evidence? Can you tell us where there are being sold?

The Church needs celibacy, yet Peter and MANY POPES were married, some even with multiple wives!? What a hypocritical bunch of people

Celibacy is a Church practice, not a dogma that is perfectly in line with Scripture.

Revelations says the woman will be drunk with blood of martys. Think of all the people the RCC tortured and killed during the Inquistion, because they were practicing Christianity the RIGHT way.

Again, fair is fair. How about the countless numbers of Catholic martyrs who resisted totalitarianism?

Revelations says the “whore” and “the city” has had reigning power over the kings of the Earth. Who has had more power than anyone to ever exist in the history of existance!? THE POPES!

Rome is a city built on seven hills, much like Revelations describes. Let’s face it. Catholicism is wrong.

This is personal interpretation with no authority to back it.

Honestly, I can’t follow Catholicism and love Christ with my heart. You know why I liked Catholicism? I liked the decorated Cathedrals, I liked the jewels on my Rosary, I liked the words, the clothes, the pomp, the rituals, the artwork, the gold, the history, the order, the everything, except one thing: Jesus Christ

Ok, but that is your problem. It does not prove a thing about the truths of Catholicism, or that any single other Catholic in the universe omits Jesus Christ.

Really the only questions I have at this point are:

Is Catholicism a Christian group?

and

Can a Catholic be saved if he believes all the Church teaches?

Answer “no” to either of these questions and congratulations. You are officially an anti-Catholic and no more worthy of a hearing than a KKK member speaking on race relations. May God turn you from this evil path.

Scott


#8

Cincinnati, Ohio sits on seven hills as well, I hear. :hmmm:
:smiley:


#9

Let’s look at God’s Word. Here is a prophesy from Scripture:

Malachi 1:11

For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.

Hmmmmm…in what Church is a pure sacrifice offered up everywhere from sun up to sun down? Hmmmm…:hmmm:


#10

[quote=kyle8921]… I know that no matter what I say, you will have something to defend your religion, but please, just consider it, and think, what would Jesus do?

[/quote]

In other words “Even though you are going to find errors in what I say, don’t bother, I don’t want to hear it”.

Ask yourself: “Is that something Jesus would do?”. Jesus was not the perpetuator of such lies.


#11
  1. Kyle, you’re a wack-job. Get over your pride.
  2. The Vatican is on Vatican Hill (that would be hill 8, for the numerically inclined). Rome proper has the other 7.
  3. Just for fun, let’s look at some other cities with seven hills…
    amman, saudi arabia
    istanbul, turkey
    kampala, uganda
    seven hills, ohio
    lisbon, portugal
    tirupati, india
    kerala, india
    nimes, france
    lynchburg, virgiania
    san francisco
    jerusalem
    rio de janero

…but wait…if there’s more than one option, how do you know you have it right?!? Oh, that’s right, you’ve declared yourself infallible! You just have to be right…don’t you?


#12

**Is there a full moon tonight? :whacky: **

You would think Fundamentalists would be embarrassed to come on this forum and spout the same infantile accusations at the Catholic Church.


He should have said, “Hi, I’m really an intelligent human being, but I’m going to check my intelligence at the door and make ridiculous accusations about the Catholic Church that anyone with a first grade education could refute, all the while making a complete fool of myself.”


**And then Fundamentalist wonder why the rest of the world doesn’t take them seriously. :hmmm: **


#13

What are the colors of priests of the Catholic Church?

They normally wear black, often they wear white. It depends on the season. I think there is like one time out of the year when they wear purple, that is during advent. So, it would be improper to associate it with The Catholic Church, which is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church which was founded by Christ.

And we shouldn’t call our leaders “father” either.

Don’t forget about Christ calling Abraham, “Father Abraham”. Now that is a pretty big contradiction to your whole arguement. How about Paul calling himself “your spiritual father”. Hmmmm, it seems like scripture contradicts your whole arguement.


#14

[quote=RyanL]1. Kyle, you’re a wack-job. Get over your pride.
2. The Vatican is on Vatican Hill (that would be hill 8, for the numerically inclined). Rome proper has the other 7.
3. Just for fun, let’s look at some other cities with seven hills…

seven hills, ohio

[/quote]

:rotfl: :rotfl::rotfl:


#15

[quote=kyle8921]I’ve been reading, searching for the “true” religion of the world, and while it may be Christianity, it most definitely is not Catholicism.

[/quote]

Kyle my brother I don’t know where you are getting all of this misinformation, but it is leading you in the wrong direction. If you are sincerely searching for the Truth with an open heart, you will find it. If you harden your heart with a lot of hateful misinformation, you won’ be able to discern it. Start with prayer, prayer and prayer. Ask the Holy Spirit to guide you to the Pillar and Foundation of Truth and you will be shown the way. Jesus Christ founded a Church to help us in our search.

May the grace of Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.

Your brother in Christ.


#16

[quote=kyle8921]But let me say something first… I know that no matter what I say, **you will have something to defend *your ***religion, but please, just consider it, and think, what would Jesus do?

[/quote]

“Your” religion, not “our” religion. You gave it away that you are not really Catholic! It’s hard to start off answering your post when it’s based on dishonesty. :nope:


#17

[quote=kyle8921]I could go on and on, but this is enough for now. You all said that God and Christ would lead me back to Catholicism. Honestly, I can’t follow Catholicism and love Christ with my heart. You know why I liked Catholicism? I liked the decorated Cathedrals, I liked the jewels on my Rosary, I liked the words, the clothes, the pomp, the rituals, the artwork, the gold, the history, the order, the everything, except one thing: Jesus Christ.

Without him, Christianty does not exist. For these reasons, and many more, I no longer can believe what the Catholic Church teaches or believes. If you read all that… thanks.
[/quote]

Thank you, Mr. Chick… did you have a point to all this?


#18

[quote=kyle8921] I’ve been reading, searching for the “true” religion of the world, and while it may be Christianity, it most definitely is not Catholicism.
[/quote]

I most definitely disagree with you…and so did the entire Christian world for about 1500 years.

[quote=kyle8921] But let me say something first… I know that no matter what I say, you will have something to defend your religion, but please, just consider it, and think, what would Jesus do?
[/quote]

I imagine Jesus would defend His Church, much like he has been doing for the last 2,000 years.

[quote=kyle8921] believe that the Catholic Church has made SO many wrong choices. It has made SO many people believe false truths.
[/quote]

Please…cite them…Historically and theologically it seems that the Church has made SO many right choices and defended the Truth in spite of unworthy and in some cases down-right corrupt men.

[quote=kyle8921] Well, there is just too much for me to write. I mean, come on!
[/quote]

No really, I’m all ears…come on.

[quote=kyle8921] How can you defend the Inquisition? Would Christ have allowed such a thing?
[/quote]

Well…actually He did…since it happened, but this gets into the question of whether every thing that happens is God’s active will and that’s a whole other topic…I think you were trying to ask would Christ have done such a thing. Anyway, the Inquisition is shrouded in mystery and emotions run high any time you talk about it. Did bad things happen-yes—because of bad PEOPLE, not a bad Church. The church is a hospital for sinners not a museum for Saints.

Understanding the Inquisition Read

[quote=kyle8921] Popes claim to be Christ on Earth
[/quote]

That is a blatant misrepresentation of the function Popes play…they are the Vicar of Christ-they are not Christ.

The Papacy

Read these…too much to type.

[quote=kyle8921] the vicars of God.
[/quote]

This is not one of the Pope’s titles and sounds like the vile stuff that comes from Seventh Day Adventists…

[quote=kyle8921] when the Church was at the height of its power… such an interesting title for what should be Christ’s most influential times on Earth
[/quote]

You say power—you mean political power, which the Church is not Divinely guaranteed protection of-in now way does the political power of the Church reflect Christ’s “Influence” on Earth…He is God-he can have influence, and did have great influence, even when the Church was in the catacombs.

[quote=kyle8921] To even TRY to defend Catholics’ WORSHIP of Mary and Saints is a complete joke.
[/quote]

This is patent old line anti-Catholicism. You know it to not be true, as does every Catholic and any Protestant or non-catholic with a good handle of the English language.

Look up these words: latria, dulia, and hyperdulia

Then read this: Saints and the English Language

[quote=kyle8921] Venerate means the same thing as worship
[/quote]

Get a dictionary…a good dictionary—actually look it up in Latin too. Find the three different types of worship…then figure out which one belongs only to God and which type of worishp corolates to the word venerate. This will peremently end all debate over this issue. Those who can not differentiate between the two have a problem with the English language, not Catholicism.

Just covered that: Saints, again

Look up Latria, dulia, and hyperdulia—English does not discriminate.

[quote=kyle8921] Have you seen how much gold and jewels the Catholic Church has?!
[/quote]

Besides stuff in museums not much at all…that is a joke right?!? Dioceses throughout the world are usually financially autonomous. In many cases bordering on bankruptcy, some are doing financially alright though.

[quote=kyle8921] “in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication” (Revelation 17:4)
[/quote]

Hmm…you’re right, I must be living a giant lie…oh wait, is there a possibility there may just be a wee bit of symbolism in there?

[quote=kyle8921] What are the colors of priests of the Catholic Church?
[/quote]

BTW if we’re being strictly literal the liturgical colors are Red (note-not Scarlet), Green (most of the year), Violet and White…sometimes Rose maybe used.

Note: Violet, literally “amaranth red,” is the color of Bishops’, Archbishops’, and Patriarchs’ non-liturgical dress

More can be found here:
Offical Liturgical Colors


#19

[quote=Eden]“Your” religion, not “our” religion. You gave it away that you are not really Catholic! It’s hard to start off answering your post when it’s based on dishonesty. :nope:
[/quote]

No kidding! It’s so easy to spot the ones that are just out to piss everybody off.


#20

[quote=kyle8921] I know my “Father” wears those colors a lot, not to mention the gold and jewels.
[/quote]

Your priest should be wearing the approved liturgical colors…this does pose an interesting problem though—some Anglicans, Lutherans, and other groups stole our vestment colors—they must be guilty too.

[quote=kyle8921] And we shouldn’t call our leaders “father” either. Sure, Peter may have said that he has become a “father” to the people, but that doesn’t mean we should call them “fathers,” especially when GOD told us not to!
[/quote]

I believe Paul said that…or at least he said it too. Regardless this is more old-school anti-Catholicism…I’m getting tired of typing…
Call no man Father?
Read! “And the Truth shall set you free!”

[quote=kyle8921] What the?! Did Revelations not just a describe a golden cup, covererd with abominations? How can we be so ignorant!?
[/quote]

Hmm…yes, Revelation—not plural—is arguably the most figurative book in the entire Bible, reading this literalistic value indicates a lack of academic honesty—applying it to Catholicism indicates a lack of understanding of history.
Is the Catholic Church the Whore of Babylon?
Read.

[quote=kyle8921] And about indulgences… I hear we still sell them today in parts of the world. This is one of the worst things I think the Church has ever done. Give us money and we’ll get you out of Purgatory? What’s wrong with you people!
[/quote]

Hmm…you use two different pronouns here…we and “you” are you sure you’re Catholic. Anyway, that’s a completely bogus claim and represents a misunderstanding of what indulgences are.

Truths and Myths about Indulgences

[quote=kyle8921]The Church needs celibacy, yet Peter and MANY POPES were married, some even with multiple wives!? What a hypocritical bunch of people…
[/quote]

You are correct…we could do away with celibacy tomorrow and it wouldn’t change anything about us being Catholic…Paul was celibate and there has been a long history of priestly celibacy since then…celibacy is a discipline of the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church.
This is getting old…Priestly Celibacy Read

[quote=kyle8921]Who has had more power than anyone to ever exist in the history of existance!? THE POPES!
[/quote]

Ok, this has got to be a joke…if I asked you right now who was the most “powerful” man on earth—and you seem to be taking it in the terms of politics—I think everyone on the forum would fall on the floor.

[quote=kyle8921]Rome is a city built on seven hills, much like Revelations describes.
[/quote]

You’re RIGHT! Rome does lie on seven hills—their names are:
Palatine
Capitoline
Quirinal
Viminal
Esquiline
Caelian
Aventine

The Vatican City, the Holy See lies across the Tiber—on Vatican Hill

[quote=kyle8921] Let’s face it. Catholicism is wrong.
[/quote]

I can’t possibly see how you’ve drawn that conclusion from the evidence you’ve given. Your post is long on attacks but short on evidence or fact to back that up. It is a typical rant that I see from anti-Catholics who come to stir things up on the board and try to confuse people so you are either masking your true purpose or someone has duped you—you said you’ve done lots of reading, why don’t you list the books you’ve been reading because they seem to be flawed on historical, theological, and factual matters.

[quote=kyle8921] I liked the decorated Cathedrals, I liked the jewels on my Rosary, I liked the words, the clothes, the pomp, the rituals, the artwork, the gold, the history, the order, the everything, except one thing: Jesus Christ.
[/quote]

That indicates poor catechesis and misplaced trust. That is not the fault of the Church, I love the Cathedrals, I love my rosary—though both are plain-I love the “pomp” (as you put it) because I understand the tradition behind it. Catholic artists are-in my opinion—the best in the world. I haven’t seen much gold to be honest. The history is amazing-I suggest you truly look into it. But most of all I love Jesus Christ…I love all the other’s because I can see His work in it all.


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