The appearances of Mary....

The Catholic Church emphatically states that Marian apparitions can never add anything new to the deposit of faith, and belief in MA is never required by the CC. With that said: The appearances of Mary and the miraculous nature of these appearances and associated messages, which are always in keeping with scripture, throughout history, in different parts of the world, have brought millions to Christ and have resulted in conversions, repentance, growth in holiness and an improved prayer life.

Non-Catholics, even though no one is required, by the CC, to believe, don’t you at least find these facts rather prodigiously compelling? I only ask because they had such an amazing impact on me as a former non-Catholic, and again, they remain, according to the CC, outside the purview of the deposit of faith. Jesus is our one and only savior and these apparitions merely point to her Son Jesus Christ.

Hey Joe, when you say that the “Appearances of Mary and the miraculous nature of these appearances and associated messages, which are always in keeping with scripture”, do you mean the appearances are always keeping with scripture? or the messages are? What have been the messages?

And do the appearances of Mary include the ones on toast or oil slicks or that type of thing?

No.

These apparitions usually come in response to alot of suffering or in response to a falling away of faith or hope.

The fruit of authentic apparitions is Jesus Christ. If there is no good fruit of the Tree of Life, it is false.

Friend,

I am very slow to discount anything that might be coming from heaven, and very quick to confirm every message by the Apostolic deposit of faith in the Holy Scriptures.

Since there have been many reported sightings or messages from the Blessed Virgin which have been disavowed or shown to be fraudulent, it might be better to ask if particular accounts of the Blessed Virgin’s visitation are particularly persuasive or meaningful to Christians outside the circle of Rome.

In that way, you might ask about Fatima, or Lourdes, or Guadalupe, which have all been endorsed by the Vatican, and have a significantly different character than the supposed visitations of those labeled as fraudelent, or unworthy of belief. If this were your question, I’ll say yes, the messages of Fatima, Lourdes, and the miraculous happenings of Guadalupe are particularly moving to me, as are the calls to faith, conversion, repentance, and prayer. Of course, when the average priest stands before the congregation and preaches faith, conversion, repentance, and prayer centered in Christ Jesus as the Way, the Truth, and the Life, we ought to hear him just as readily… it is the same Apostolic message of Holy Scripture, and happens to coincide with the sacramental means of grace.

Perhaps elsewhere we can talk about how persuasive the messages are themselves… and what those messages are.

Peace to you.

Most religions have apparitions or experiences - they don’t convince me to become Muslim or Buddhist…

Also, I don’t know that I think they are all always keeping with Scripture or Tradition. I also think that it is interesting that these apparitions are, in relative terms, a pretty recent thing in the history of the Church, and seem to correspond to a particular focus on Mary developing in Catholicism in the medieval period and later when all the extra Marian dogmas were also developed.

… Not unlike a mother hastening to her children in need, in danger.

[quote= joe370]…Marian apparitions can never add anything new to the deposit of faith, …
[/quote]

They do however go a long way in confirming what is already proposed for our belief, and can be instrumental in rekindling our faith when it is barely smouldering. As KathleenGee said - they’re always timely.

Most religons do have experiences of some sort but they do not have much evidence in favor of them. Even in Catholicism, some Marian apparitions have more evidence to support them than others. I do not know of any recent Buddhist or Muslim apparitions that have a clear message in keeping with the faith’s tradition and also have miracles connected to them.

Secondly, Marian apparitions have been going on for a long time. We know more about recent ones (e.g. Lourdes/Fatima) because if we hear of an apparition from the first millenium, we would likely discount it as legend. For example, it said that Mary appeared to St. Nicholas (approx 4th century) and St. Dominic (early middle ages). Devotion to Mary did not develop in the middle ages and also there are 4 dogmas: only 2 of them were declared after 1800, the other 2 were declared long before then

Going through Foster/Adoption Licensing, I had my home inspected last week by one of the Social Workers who really admired the huge picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe hanging above my fire place.

It gave me an opportunity to share with her the history behind the image and the related passages in the Bible that speak about her. The Social Worker revealed to me that while she and her husband attend a Protestant Church called Calvary Christian Center, her husband’s family is all Catholic & that they “worship the Catholic Church” when they travel to New Orleans to visit them. Certainly she intended to say that they worshipped “AT” the Catholic Church on those occasions :wink: She seemed to be very impressed to learn about the miracles within the miracle & most especially how many of the Natives became Catholic Christians after seeing the Tilma of Juan Diego stamped miraculously with the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

What are some of the fruits or evidences Catholics would point at for both the validity and efficacy (at promting faith/repentance) in these apparitions? Can you quantify it?

This is an excellent Lutheran response. :thumbsup:

Jon

No. Apparitions are a part of many different groups. In fact, I find them to have the absolute opposite effect on the few people I have heard mention them. Granted I have never gone to a Catholic Church to casually bring the topic up!

Bluegoat;7451341]Most religions have apparitions or experiences - they don’t convince me to become Muslim or Buddhist…

Send those miraculous apparitions to me please of whoever. I would be curious to see if there are eyewitness testimony to miracles during these apparitions of whoever. If you were to research these approved Marian apparitions, that have brought millions closer to Jesus, I do believe you would at least find them compelling.

Also, I don’t know that I think they are all always keeping with Scripture or Tradition.

Approved apparitions? Always!!!

I also think that it is interesting that these apparitions are, in relative terms, a pretty recent thing in the history of the Church, and seem to correspond to a particular focus on Mary developing in Catholicism in the medieval period and later when all the extra Marian dogmas were also developed.

Let me rephrase it: these appearances of Mary and the miraculous nature of these appearances, and associated messages throughout history, in different parts of the world, have brought millions to Christ and have resulted in conversions, repentance, growth in holiness and an improved prayer life; there is nothing in Islam or Buddhism that can compare; don’t you at least find these facts rather prodigiously compelling?

I have no idea what you are talking about…Back it up…

I was in Fatima. Saw an old man who had witnessed the miracle of the sun. Seventy thousand people were present, including many atheists.

Mary appeared to the children first to pray and do penance for sinners. They were also taught a simple prayer of Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament by an angel who identified himself as the Angel of Portugal…some attribute him to St. Michael the Archangel.

Then she asked that we pray the daily rosary and do penance not only for sinners, but for the conversion of Russia who would spread her errors throughout the world. She said that Portugal would retain the true Catholic faith…but also implying there would be Catholic populations who would have loss of proper faith in God. She said that a strange light would appear in the sky at the beginning of the next world war, worse than WWI. She asked us to consecrate ourselves to her Immaculate Heart…and in the end, her Immaculate Heart would triumph. She asked to pray for peace and to hope for it…not in her own words…

She appeared to the children of Fatima in 1917.

President Ronald Reagan loved Pope John Paul II. Pope John Paul II had an assassination attempt on his life on the first apparition date of Fatima, May 13. Mary’s final apparition was in October…in pouring rain. It looked like the sun was falling out of the sky. People began screaming…and she appearing in the sky…the sun then came back to its former position, and the peoples’ clothes were now dry.

Fatima and all Marian approved apparitions are under the discipline of private revelations. Catholics are not obliged to believe any private revelation in the Catholic Church.

Finally, in 1983, I became aware of a Fr. Schiller, a German Jesuit. He had recently died. He and 7 other German Jesuits stationed in Japan were living near the explosion of the nuclear bomb. He was picked up in his house, twirled like a leaf, and then thrown outside and landed in a ditch with a broken leg.

Two hundred scientists examined him and the other Jesuits. They all survived with no trace of radiation. When asked how they thought this had happened, they replied that they were following the requests of our Lady of Fatima.

Note that Mary did not ask that we pray for the conversion of the Naziis…she prayed for the conversion of Russia – communism. I don’t have the pope’s name off hand, but there is an encyclical on the condemnation of communism, and its conviction most clear.

I was a first hand witness to the KGB anti-American propaganda that entered Mozambique, June, 1974, when the headline on the independence of Mozambique blared in bold headlines, “America is the Enemy of the World”. The Americans working there were for primarily humanitarian reasons, for the good of the people with Americans contributing to the work.

Hey brother…

=WorkerPriest;7451338]Friend,

I am very slow to discount anything that might be coming from heaven, and very quick to confirm every message by the Apostolic deposit of faith in the Holy Scriptures.

Since there have been many reported sightings or messages from the Blessed Virgin which have been disavowed or shown to be fraudulent, it might be better to ask if particular accounts of the Blessed Virgin’s visitation are particularly persuasive or meaningful to Christians outside the circle of Rome.

Well stated brother. Of course I am talking about approved apparitions. Not the kind that have people seeing Mary in a cupcake. LOL…Well, I can’t edit the thread so I will ask everyone here:

Do you find that these particular accounts (approved) - of the Blessed Virgin’s visitation are particularly persuasive or meaningful to Christians outside the circle of Rome. They were to me when I was a non-Catholic. Mary is NOT just the mother of catholics; she is the mother of everyone!!! The message is not just for catholics…:thumbsup:

In that way, you might ask about Fatima, or Lourdes, or Guadalupe, which have all been endorsed by the Vatican, and have a significantly different character than the supposed visitations of those labeled as fraudelent, or unworthy of belief.

I just assumed everyone would know that I was speaking about approved Marian apparitions; my bad. But again, I cannot edit the OP.

If this were your question, I’ll say yes, the messages of Fatima, Lourdes, and the miraculous happenings of Guadalupe are particularly moving to me, as are the calls to faith, conversion, repentance, and prayer. Of course, when the average priest stands before the congregation and preaches faith, conversion, repentance, and prayer centered in Christ Jesus as the Way, the Truth, and the Life, we ought to hear him just as readily… it is the same Apostolic message of Holy Scripture, and happens to coincide with the sacramental means of grace.

Thanks for the feedback, and I couldn’t agree more. As I said before though, these apparitions are not required reading, so to speak, as the apostolic message of holy scripture is, but they certainly do bolster ones faith; they did for me anyway.

Perhaps elsewhere we can talk about how persuasive the messages are themselves… and what those messages are.

The message is the most important, but the miraculous nature is what drew me to the message.

Peace to you too brother…:thumbsup:

No, I do not mean the appearances are always keeping with scripture? The message of course!!! The miraculous nature of these apparitions is what draws one in though.

Always, always, always the message!!!

As a non-Catholic, Fatima was instrumental in drawing me closer to Jesus; thanks for the feedback Kathleen. :thumbsup:

Back what up? That people have seen appariations of deceased people or major figures in other religions?

You could google the following:

Message of Fatima, Message of Lourdes or St Bernadette, Message of our Lady of Guadalupe.

You could also go on you tube and type in Incorruptible saints, or St Bernadette of Lourdes, and you will find her body still intact all these years.

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