The Berwick Evasion [Here comes health care rationing]

This falls into the “I told you so” category, but unfortunately we right wing folks were right. I hope the USCCB is happy with what they helped bring about. Can anyone say “Death Panels?” Dr. Berwick is Obama’s recess appointment to handle Medicare, Medicaid and Obamacare. He strongly believes capitalism is wrong and wealth as well as health care must be redistributed.

"In an influential 1996 book “New Rules,” Dr. Berwick and a co-author argued that one of “the primary functions” of health regulation is “to constrain decentralized, individual decision making” and “to weigh public welfare against the choices of private consumers.”

He then recommended “protocols, guidelines, and algorithms for care,” with the “common underlying notion that someone knows or can discover the ‘best way’ to carry out a task to reach a decision, and that improvement can come from standardizing processes and behaviors to conform to this ideal model.” And guess who will determine the “best way”?
…his personal view of the “public welfare” will have the power to trump the mere “choices of private consumers.”

online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703636404575352860425050800.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Scary stuff, but par for the course of the Obama agenda.

Until the liberals who voted for Obama find themselves in a healthcare situation where their own life is at stake, they will continue to belive that wealth and health redistribution is ‘fair and proper’.

The tenets of personal liberty that our founding fathers fought so hard for are falling without scarcly a whimper.

What is really scary is the number of our fellow citizens who were drawn in by flowery rhetoric and lofty speeches and did not bother to look at what was going on. Even more scary than that are the folks who continue to support this man after having evidence of what he is really about. I dread to think what this country will look like ten, twenty years from now.

[quote="SVP, post:2, topic:204594"]
Scary stuff, but par for the course of the Obama agenda.

Until the liberals who voted for Obama find themselves in a healthcare situation where their own life is at stake, they will continue to belive that wealth and health redistribution is 'fair and proper'.

[/quote]

Yes, and then they'll be the first ones to start bellyaching.

It's the same as anyplace where socialism/fascism has been implemented. The radicals get right behind the leader of change, and when the old order has been destroyed, they're the first ones to get shot, all the while crying, "But I supported you! How could you shoot me???"

But the new regime recognizes possible problems, and any bunch of people who have proven so useful in deposing one government might just prove to be a threat to the new one, and the new regime takes appropriate steps to ensure those pesky people are neutralized. As a certain clever Nazi once observed, "Who needs revolutionaries once the revolution has been achieved?"

[quote="SVP, post:2, topic:204594"]
The tenets of personal liberty that our founding fathers fought so hard for are falling without scarcly a whimper.

[/quote]

True, regrettably. "What, that Constitutional stuff? BOR-*ing! I like Obama, he's cool! Turn on the TV, is it time for *Desperate Housewives yet?"

[quote="markbrumbaugh, post:1, topic:204594"]
This falls into the "I told you so" category, but unfortunately we right wing folks were right. I hope the USCCB is happy with what they helped bring about. Can anyone say "Death Panels?" Dr. Berwick is Obama's recess appointment to handle Medicare, Medicaid and Obamacare. He strongly believes capitalism is wrong and wealth as well as health care must be redistributed.

"In an influential 1996 book "New Rules," Dr. Berwick and a co-author argued that one of "the primary functions" of health regulation is "to constrain decentralized, individual decision making" and "to weigh public welfare against the choices of private consumers."

He then recommended "protocols, guidelines, and algorithms for care," with the "common underlying notion that someone knows or can discover the 'best way' to carry out a task to reach a decision, and that improvement can come from standardizing processes and behaviors to conform to this ideal model." And guess who will determine the "best way"?
....his personal view of the "public welfare" will have the power to trump the mere "choices of private consumers."

online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703636404575352860425050800.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

[/quote]

Where does this opinion piece make any claims to Dr. Berwick's feelings on capitalism? It doesn't and from what I can tell it's merely your supposition he doesn't like capitalism. But then again this begs the question as to why everybody needs to be unabashed supporters of capitalism as it's practiced in the U.S. to have their opinion taken seriously.

Another point is that recess appointments are nothing new or uncommon. Every president does it and every president has done it. They might not be right or even preferential, but they are done.

I've got news for all of you that healthcare in this country is rationed and our insurance companies can do it with the best of them. Most insurance companies will only pay for certain procedures or treatments up to a certain amount or number of times -- after that you're on your own. Insurance companies would rather pay for an amputation and kidney dialysis than say a gym membership, despite overwhelming medical evidence that regular exercise could prevent some of those occurences. So don't try to tell me that rationing is some concept just introduced into this country by Obama or Europeans -- it's been going on for quite a while.

ChadS

[quote="mary_bobo, post:3, topic:204594"]
What is really scary is the number of our fellow citizens who were drawn in by flowery rhetoric and lofty speeches and did not bother to look at what was going on. Even more scary than that are the folks who continue to support this man after having evidence of what he is really about. I dread to think what this country will look like ten, twenty years from now.

[/quote]

I do not regret supporting Obama. BTW, do you know any politician who would have been a better option for me who has left-wing economic views?

[quote="ChadS, post:5, topic:204594"]
Where does this opinion piece make any claims to Dr. Berwick's feelings on capitalism? It doesn't and from what I can tell it's merely your supposition he doesn't like capitalism. But then again this begs the question as to why everybody needs to be unabashed supporters of capitalism as it's practiced in the U.S. to have their opinion taken seriously.

Another point is that recess appointments are nothing new or uncommon. Every president does it and every president has done it. They might not be right or even preferential, but they are done.

I've got news for all of you that healthcare in this country is rationed and our insurance companies can do it with the best of them. Most insurance companies will only pay for certain procedures or treatments up to a certain amount or number of times -- after that you're on your own. Insurance companies would rather pay for an amputation and kidney dialysis than say a gym membership, despite overwhelming medical evidence that regular exercise could prevent some of those occurences. So don't try to tell me that rationing is some concept just introduced into this country by Obama or Europeans -- it's been going on for quite a while.

ChadS

[/quote]

Of course medical care is rationed in some sense, by insurance companies and government. But it isn't rationed due to lack of facilities and personnel.

If, indeed, the number of insured people significantly increases (and I'm not sure anyone can know that yet) it will increase the number of people wanting to utilize the same facilities and personnel we presently have. To the extent the care is free or heavily subsidized, it encourages overutilization; something anyone who has ever read Medicaid recipients' charts knows.

There is a government component in the pay system under the current law. We know that. What we don't know, and what is debated, is just how much that will cost the government through expansion of Medicaid and subsidies for earners making less than $70 or $80,000/year. Unlike insurance companies which must take in sufficient premiums to pay for claims, the government doesn't have to do it, and most likely will not do it to an extent sufficient to pay the claims.

As with the Gulf oil spill, the government sometimes perversely refuses to spend its own money even on important things if it has some other objective in mind. There is no particular reason to assume the government will not attempt to do that with medical care, at least to some degree. Indeed, it has at least promised to massively cut spending on Medicare; something that cannot have any result other than reduction in care provided.

This government stepped out into the void with this healthcare law. Few of the responsible people had read it, and nobody knows or can know, what it provides because so much of it kicks decisions to regulators. So it really can't be said that there will be "no" rationing. On the other hand, if the overutilization that typically attends "free" or heavily subsidized care (or anything else) comes to pass, greater rationing than the insurers ever dreamed of will simply become inevitable.

[quote="ChadS, post:5, topic:204594"]
Where does this opinion piece make any claims to Dr. Berwick's feelings on capitalism? It doesn't and from what I can tell it's merely your supposition he doesn't like capitalism. But then again this begs the question as to why everybody needs to be unabashed supporters of capitalism as it's practiced in the U.S. to have their opinion taken seriously.

Another point is that recess appointments are nothing new or uncommon. Every president does it and every president has done it. They might not be right or even preferential, but they are done.

I've got news for all of you that healthcare in this country is rationed and our insurance companies can do it with the best of them. Most insurance companies will only pay for certain procedures or treatments up to a certain amount or number of times -- after that you're on your own. Insurance companies would rather pay for an amputation and kidney dialysis than say a gym membership, despite overwhelming medical evidence that regular exercise could prevent some of those occurences. So don't try to tell me that rationing is some concept just introduced into this country by Obama or Europeans -- it's been going on for quite a while.

ChadS

[/quote]

I'm not surprised that you and Black Rose support this. But you are right, I will now include a reference to Dr. Berwicks disdain for capitalism, as if it were needed.

" the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) now has primary responsibility for implementing the federal takeover of the U.S. health-care industry, and Pres. Barack Obama proposes to fill a key position there with Dr. Donald Berwick, who exemplifies the worst aspects of the Democrats’ health-care agenda: denouncing the “darkness of private enterprise,” he celebrates the centralization of power, the redistribution of wealth, and the subordination of health-care professionals to political players. "

If you like Berwick, you will love his speech commemorating the anniversary of the NHS in England.

article.nationalreview.com/435338/the-real-face-of-obamacare/the-editors

So I guess Sarah Palin was right, huh? ;)

[quote="markbrumbaugh, post:8, topic:204594"]
I'm not surprised that you and Black Rose support this.

[/quote]

I'm not exactly sure what that is supposed to mean.

But you are right, I will now include a reference to Dr. Berwicks disdain for capitalism, as if it were needed.

" the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) now has primary responsibility for implementing the federal takeover of the U.S. health-care industry, and Pres. Barack Obama proposes to fill a key position there with Dr. Donald Berwick, who exemplifies the worst aspects of the Democrats’ health-care agenda: denouncing the “darkness of private enterprise,” he celebrates the centralization of power, the redistribution of wealth, and the subordination of health-care professionals to political players. "

If you like Berwick, you will love his speech commemorating the anniversary of the NHS in England.

article.nationalreview.com/435338/the-real-face-of-obamacare/the-editors

I'm hardly surprised that National Review would write a boogeyman piece about Berwick. The "darkness of private enterprise" quote is ripped out of that youtube video and placed out of context. It makes much more sense when the darkness is compared to the "light" of media scrutiny, government oversight and regulation. What he mean is that the basic structure and foundation of our healthcare system has been basically built up away from any sort of scrutiny for too long.

I suppose if you are completely satisfied with those types of decisions being made in boardrooms then you are free to disagree with Berwick, however maybe it would be nice to know a little more about how and why those decisions are reached and maybe some say could be had.

Obviously the Obama plan isn't perfect, but neither is keeping the status quo.

ChadS

No, I can’t. Obama is about as radically far left as you can get.

[quote="mary_bobo, post:11, topic:204594"]
No, I can't. Obama is about as radically far left as you can get.

[/quote]

You know that this is absolutely not correct. In fact, it is the same sort of 'rhetoric' that you were just recently speaking out against.

I think that Berwick is extremely qualified and the right man for the job.

And since when is the Republican Party concerned about recess appointments? How short are your memories?

Who's surprised? How else are they going to balance the medical and retirement budgets? They aborted the children, so there aren't enough people left over to pay for it all. They're going to have to start offing people, or the system will only go ever-further into the red. They're both bankrupt already, anyway.

They sneered at the "culture of life", but the "culture of death" has it's own methods for dealing with "unwanted persons". Of course the Catholic Church warned about all this, which is why we're just a bunch of backward religious fanatics.

Pro-life is what people are when they can do add. Hmm... let's see. If every couple only has 1 or 2 kids, and they get old, the smaller group behind them has to pay for their stuff. This might be a problem. Hm... Oh, never mind!

[quote="jjdrury81, post:12, topic:204594"]
You know that this is absolutely not correct. In fact, it is the same sort of 'rhetoric' that you were just recently speaking out against.

I think that Berwick is extremely qualified and the right man for the job.

And since when is the Republican Party concerned about recess appointments? How short are your memories?

[/quote]

Not short at all, my friend. Of course every president does recess appointments. That is his right. The difference is that this one is about totally restructuring our health care delivery system. He admires the single payer plan. IMHO that will not be popular in this country. He is very qualified if that is the system you want and I assume by your past posts that you do. I hope it is all you think it will be when you get it.

[quote="markbrumbaugh, post:1, topic:204594"]
Can anyone say "Death Panels?"

[/quote]

Recycled and Debunked Crazy talk

[quote="jjdrury81, post:12, topic:204594"]
You know that this is absolutely not correct. In fact, it is the same sort of 'rhetoric' that you were just recently speaking out against.

I think that Berwick is extremely qualified and the right man for the job.

And since when is the Republican Party concerned about recess appointments? How short are your memories?

[/quote]

This appointment didn't even get out of committee (Democrat controlled). Usually the
name is submitted for discussion and THEN they do a recess appointment if it is
getting nowhere. (ie.a filibuster). I understand that the committee raised an objection
as well.

As for Berwick qualifications, definitely far left qualified, which even some democrats
weren't too sure about.

I wonder if Berwick has read all the health care bill? Doesn't matter because he will
do what he wants with it. The bill left a lot of things wide open for his discretion.

So much for Obama's promise on open and transparent government . . .:mad:

[quote="jjdrury81, post:12, topic:204594"]
You know that this is absolutely not correct. In fact, it is the same sort of 'rhetoric' that you were just recently speaking out against.

I think that Berwick is extremely qualified and the right man for the job.

And since when is the Republican Party concerned about recess appointments? How short are your memories?

[/quote]

I'm not bellyaching about recess appointment, but the philosophy of the man. If you want someone who will put your illness, age, and cost for improvement through some mathematical formula to make the most people better, then fine. He is definitely the guy to do it. We will redistribute the money for expensive medical care, like a heart transplant, to those who can't afford to get their tonsils out. And that sounds pretty good doesn't it?

Health insurance should be a risk management decision for catastrophies, not a maintenance contract for prepaid everyday care. The fact that patients are isolated from the direct impact of the cost of their care, is what has caused prices and demand to simultaneously increase to unsustainable levels. What we have now is not like an insurance policy for your house burning down, it is a prepaid plan that covers the utilitiy bills. That ain't insurance. That is a free ticket to run your AC at 68 degrees. And now we think everyone should have access to free 68 degree AC. If someone's house burns down and it is expensive to rebuild it, we won't because everyone would have to raise their thermostat to 69. EVEN if the poor person has spent money to have fire insurance on his house for the last 60 years.

The problem with libs, is their quest for equal outcome. They ignore the statistic truth that eliminating "variation" in a system does NOT make the mean or average go up. In fact the elimination of poinst above the mean, is going to make the mean go down, but who cares...we all will get the same thing.

I'd prefer a system where if you have worked hard, saved your money, bought catastrophic insurance, you can buy what you can afford. If health care should be rationed, it should be on the basis of how much you are willing to put into saving your own bacon, not making sure everyone has the same bacon regardless of whether they planned ahead or not. Ditto widescreen TV's, cell phones, and cars.

Health care is not a right...it is a commodity. I may not be politically correct, but I am right. The harder everyone works for themselves... the more they have to spend on everything and the better off everyone is.

The more things are "free", the less incentive there is for anyone to give a flip about themselves or anyone else.

I'm afraid we're all losing sight of the most fundamentally important question here: Will it make Muslims feel good about themselves?

[quote="Black_Rose, post:6, topic:204594"]
I do not regret supporting Obama. BTW, do you know any politician who would have been a better option for me who has left-wing economic views?

[/quote]

Hugo Chavez
Castro
Mr. Awec Bawin, Kim Jong Il cause he is so ronewy he could use some company
.
Ton of them up in Canada, or even down South take you're pick. I hear Mexico loves illegal immigrants, just sneak across the border and see how friendly they are.

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