The Bible quoting Jesus Christ


#1

How is one to discern correctly the meaning of what Jesus Christ Personally taught?

Is there a system or proceedure to discover "the truth"?

God Bless you,

pat /PJM


#2

[quote="PJM, post:1, topic:286542"]
How is one to discern correctly the meaning of what Jesus Christ Personally taught?

Is there a system or proceedure to discover "the truth"?

God Bless you,

pat /PJM

[/quote]

I am sorry,but may you please elaborate?


#3

[quote="PJM, post:1, topic:286542"]
How is one to discern correctly the meaning of what Jesus Christ Personally taught?

Is there a system or proceedure to discover "the truth"?

God Bless you,

pat /PJM

[/quote]

There are a lot of authors out there who ask that same question. In fact the Jesus Seminar published an edition of the gospels, including the Gospel of Thomas, with the words of Jesus color coded. "The Five Gospels"....I have a nice hard bound copy I purchased years ago...it has since been reprinted in a soft back/paperback edition.

Red....things Jesus probably actually said

Pink....close approximation of what he said

Grey....things Jesus did not say...but may contain his ideas

Black....things Jesus would not have said but are what the early Christian communtiy had come to believe about him and reflect later traditions.

The Gospel of John is the gospel that contains the least of what Jesus actually said...they synoptics and Thomas seem to agree on many authentic sayings of Jesus.

Stephen Mitchel wrote the "Gospel of Jesus Christ"....and includes only those things which reflect authentic teachings of Jesus of Nazareth without the "layers" of teaching and traditions which were added in the decades as the Christian message spread.

Thomas Jefferson edited the gospels in his "Jefferson Bible" to reflect what he felt was the authentic message of Jesus of Nazareth...

Of course these are just sampling of many many books and authors on the subject.

And as always....I'm sure your faith tradition has weighed in on the subject as well.:)


#4

=Nicea325;9361680]I am sorry,but may you please elaborate?

There is Only One Catholic Church with its One set of Beliefs and MANY, MANY times that amount of other sets of faith beliefs. WHY? HOW?

Is truth not "One"?

Is there no way to determine what the bible REALLY Say's?

Are there No "infallible" standards of judgement?

Can [not may] just anyone pick up a bible and teach it truths? WHY or WHY NOT?:shrug:

Hope this clerifies my questions?

God Bless,
pat /PJM


#5

=Publisher;9361753]There are a lot of authors out there who ask that same question. In fact the Jesus Seminar published an edition of the gospels, including the Gospel of Thomas, with the words of Jesus color coded. "The Five Gospels"....I have a nice hard bound copy I purchased years ago...it has since been reprinted in a soft back/paperback edition.

Red....things Jesus probably actually said

Pink....close approximation of what he said

Grey....things Jesus did not say...but may contain his ideas

Black....things Jesus would not have said but are what the early Christian communtiy had come to believe about him and reflect later traditions.

The Gospel of John is the gospel that contains the least of what Jesus actually said...they synoptics and Thomas seem to agree on many authentic sayings of Jesus.

Stephen Mitchel wrote the "Gospel of Jesus Christ"....and includes only those things which reflect authentic teachings of Jesus of Nazareth without the "layers" of teaching and traditions which were added in the decades as the Christian message spread.

Thomas Jefferson edited the gospels in his "Jefferson Bible" to reflect what he felt was the authentic message of Jesus of Nazareth...

Of course these are just sampling of many many books and authors on the subject.

And as always....I'm sure your faith tradition has weighed in on the subject as well.:)

Thank you my friend;

But the "Gospel of Thomas" is NOT an "Inspired book" right:thumbsup:

And I'd like to know a great deal more about the people who made these judgments.:)

Continued Blessings,

pat /PJM


#6

Yes multiple denomonations trying to figure it all around mostly because they are locked into the bible only. Why not accept what the Cathollic church teaches about the life of Jesus? That should be sufficient. This is our faith. The first church and only true church.

You can find elements of truth in other denominations but it's not the fullfillment of what Christ taught. The Eucharist is the answer.


#7

[quote="PJM, post:1, topic:286542"]
How is one to discern correctly the meaning of what Jesus Christ Personally taught?

Is there a system or proceedure to discover "the truth"?

[/quote]

I believe Dr. Scott Hahn, a well known Catholic Scripture scholar and professor at Franciscan University at Steubenville, would tell you that the system or procedure you need is EXEGESIS.

What is exegesis?

"Exegesis is the branch of theology which investigates and expresses the true sense of Sacred Scripture."
newadvent.org/cathen/05692b.htm

Exegesis is an actual "art" and "science" that you can learn. You could learn it by taking classes. But you could probably learn it by self-study of books that explain how to do it.

I do think that no one could master the art and science of exegesis in a short time. I think it could take a few years. But it could be worth it.

To read what Dr. Scott Hahn says about exegesis, you might like to start here:
salvationhistory.com/blog/exegesis_as_theology_theology_as_exegesis/

Some Catholics wonder why the Catholic Church does not give official interpretations of every verse in the Bible. I don't know the answer to that. I only know that it doesn't.

There are Catholic commentaries on the Bible that you can get. But their interpretations are not really binding on any Catholic.

I've heard that the Catholic Church has given official interpretations of only a handful of verses in the Bible, perhaps less than half a dozen.

Also, I believe individuals believers can gain much insight into the meaning of Scriptures by personal study done with devout prayer and the intention to live a holy life.

Unlike Protestants, however, a Catholic must know the basic teachings of the Catholic Catechism and be sure to reach no conclusions that are contrary to the Catechism. Some Protestants feel completely free to interpret the Scriptures any way the decide. Catholics must stay within the bounds of the settled doctrines of the Catholic Faith.

But, beyond that, I really think that if you read and re-read the words of Jesus Christ as found in the Bible, you'll find more and more that they make sense to you, and that you know what they mean in their truest sense. Don't be afraid to try!


#8

[quote="PJM, post:1, topic:286542"]
How is one to discern correctly the meaning of what Jesus Christ Personally taught?

Is there a system or proceedure to discover "the truth"?

God Bless you,

pat /PJM

[/quote]

Yes, The Catholic Church is the Authentic interpreter of Scripture. The teaching of The Magisterium of The Catholic Church is the authentic meaning of what Jesus taught. He gave this authority to His Church when he said "Whoever hears you hears me."


#9

agreehttp://www.cleaningcassette.com


#10

=Bartolome Casas;9361892]I believe Dr. Scott Hahn, a well known Catholic Scripture scholar and professor at Franciscan University at Steubenville, would tell you that the system or procedure you need is EXEGESIS.

What is exegesis?

"Exegesis is the branch of theology which investigates and expresses the true sense of Sacred Scripture."
newadvent.org/cathen/05692b.htm

Exegesis is an actual “art” and “science” that you can learn. You could learn it by taking classes. But you could probably learn it by self-study of books that explain how to do it.

I do think that no one could master the art and science of exegesis in a short time. I think it could take a few years. But it could be worth it.

To read what Dr. Scott Hahn says about exegesis, you might like to start here:
salvationhistory.com/blog/exegesis_as_theology_theology_as_exegesis/

Some Catholics wonder why the Catholic Church does not give official interpretations of every verse in the Bible. I don’t know the answer to that. I only know that it doesn’t.

There are Catholic commentaries on the Bible that you can get. But their interpretations are not really binding on any Catholic.

I’ve heard that the Catholic Church has given official interpretations of only a handful of verses in the Bible, perhaps less than half a dozen.

Also, I believe individuals believers can gain much insight into the meaning of Scriptures by personal study done with devout prayer and the intention to live a holy life.

Unlike Protestants, however, a Catholic must know the basic teachings of the Catholic Catechism and be sure to reach no conclusions that are contrary to the Catechism. Some Protestants feel completely free to interpret the Scriptures any way the decide. Catholics must stay within the bounds of the settled doctrines of the Catholic Faith.

But, beyond that, I really think that if you read and re-read the words of Jesus Christ as found in the Bible, you’ll find more and more that they make sense to you, and that you know what they mean in their truest sense. Don’t be afraid to try!

WOW, GREAT Post; THANKS,:smiley:

As a FYI: I’m quite filmilae with the term Exregecis; with Dr Hahn and many of his works as well as his wife Kimberly. And As my “tiltle” proclaims I AM a an Informed and fully practicing Catholic [and a certifed Marian Catechist too:)].

The OPQ is to try to discover or uncover specific and precise methods that will [God Willing] curtail or limit or cause PAUSE and reflection on the part of our Brothers and Sisters who seem to have little problem with self-interpertation and results in a Plenitude of “faith beliefs” based on what ought to be a 'Single truth":shrug:

I’m seeking help in finding solid methods od Understanding:

For example: IMO:blush:

There is but one Infallable rule in understanding the bible: Never EVER can one passage contradict another if correctly understood. Never EVER can one part of the bible void, nulify, or overrule another part.

So that’s the kind ofthings I’m seeking:)

THANKS AGAIN,

God Bless,
pat/ PJM


#11

[quote="johnnyjones, post:6, topic:286542"]
Yes multiple denomonations trying to figure it all around mostly because they are locked into the bible only. Why not accept what the Cathollic church teaches about the life of Jesus? That should be sufficient. This is our faith. The first church and only true church.

You can find elements of truth in other denominations but it's not the fullfillment of what Christ taught. The Eucharist is the answer.

[/quote]

:thumbsup:


#12

[quote="PJM, post:5, topic:286542"]
Thank you my friend;

But the "Gospel of Thomas" is NOT an "Inspired book" right:thumbsup:

And I'd like to know a great deal more about the people who made these judgments.:)

Continued Blessings,

pat /PJM

[/quote]

While the "orthodox" have never considered Thomas inspired....some of the passages in the GoT have parallels in the synoptics.....some of them are worded a bit differently, and scholarship indicates some of the passages in GoT reflect an "earlier tradition" than even the synoptics. That has led scholars to believe the GoT has a "common" source for some of these sayings attributed to Jesus. Scholars range from GoT written probably around the time "John" was written to a later date...later dates usually are from the more "conservative" scholars who "need" a late date for GotT and early dates for othe other gospels.

The Jesus Seminar are a group of scholars who study the Bible in a more critical dimension. Marcus Borg...John Dominic Crossan, Burton Mack, Robert Price to name a few have published other books on Biblical development.....not too many "conservative" believers give them much credence as their conclusions aren't "faith affirming" to the majority of Christins.

I find a balanced view course of study to be more helpful. I do find the more "liberal" views to be more compelling and make more sense than the "faith affirming/conservative" views of church history and biblical development.....so much must be taken on faith and align with theological teachings.....when a critical appraisal using less "faith affirming" sources to determine biblical development I think a more balanced view can be reached...doctrinal issues must not be preserved at all costs.

Of course, your faith tradition will weigh in on their conclusions...but that's to be expected isn't it?


#13

:D=Publisher;9363991]While the "orthodox" have never considered Thomas inspired....some of the passages in the GoT have parallels in the synoptics.....some of them are worded a bit differently, and scholarship indicates some of the passages in GoT reflect an "earlier tradition" than even the synoptics. That has led scholars to believe the GoT has a "common" source for some of these sayings attributed to Jesus. Scholars range from GoT written probably around the time "John" was written to a later date...later dates usually are from the more "conservative" scholars who "need" a late date for GotT and early dates for othe other gospels.

The Jesus Seminar are a group of scholars who study the Bible in a more critical dimension. Marcus Borg...John Dominic Crossan, Burton Mack, Robert Price to name a few have published other books on Biblical development.....not too many "conservative" believers give them much credence as their conclusions aren't "faith affirming" to the majority of Christins.

I find a balanced view course of study to be more helpful. I do find the more "liberal" views to be more compelling and make more sense than the "faith affirming/conservative" views of church history and biblical development.....so much must be taken on faith and align with theological teachings.....when a critical appraisal using less "faith affirming" sources to determine biblical development I think a more balanced view can be reached...doctrinal issues must not be preserved at all costs.

Of course, your faith tradition will weigh in on their conclusions...but that's to be expected isn't it?

:D I'm nearing "68" and my memory is not quite what it once once. MANY years ago I read the Gospel of Thomas... has some pretty strange views for a Christian:rolleyes:

Nice taliking with you again,

pat /PJM


#14

[quote="PJM, post:13, topic:286542"]
:D I'm nearing "68" and my memory is not quite what it once once. MANY years ago I read the Gospel of Thomas... has some pretty strange views for a Christian:rolleyes:

Nice taliking with you again,

pat /PJM

[/quote]

The only "strange part" I found difficult was when Jesus is reputed to have said that Mary Magdalene needed to become a 'man"...or something along that line.....when looking at the historical context of that passage.....I found that beoming a "man" had more to do with the underlying belief that Adam was God's design for humanity.....and the status of women in ancient cultures as being deficient in some ways as they were not men.

A woman was seen merely as the 'recepticle" of the man's seed to incubate a new human...the ancients understood little of genetics.....through out history women felt they needed to "give a man a son".....and many kings sought new wives because they "would not" bare them sons.....because of modern knowledge of genetics, we now know the sex of the child is determined by the male...not the female. That passge has a similar thought process.


#15

=Publisher;9364046]The only "strange part" I found difficult was when Jesus is reputed to have said that Mary Magdalene needed to become a 'man"...or something along that line.....when looking at the historical context of that passage.....I found that beoming a "man" had more to do with the underlying belief that Adam was God's design for humanity.....and the status of women in ancient cultures as being deficient in some ways as they were not men.

A woman was seen merely as the 'recepticle" of the man's seed to incubate a new human...the ancients understood little of genetics.....through out history women felt they needed to "give a man a son".....and many kings sought new wives because they "would not" bare them sons.....because of modern knowledge of genetics, we now know the sex of the child is determined by the male...not the female. That passge has a similar thought process.

God permits divergent views:rolleyes: BUT does not accept them:)

God Bless,pat /PJM


#16

Excellent question, my friend! The following method has enabled me to gain logical/reasonable and simple understandings to many of the Mysteries, Teachings, and Ways of Jesus Christ:

  1. Want everyone to be able to experience happiness (contentment to intense joy) without ever losing any peace (freedom from disturbance).
  2. Set out to master being unconditionally patient and kind so that your relationships and self may experience happiness without losing any peace. Patience and kindness in the face of impatience and meanness is the major growth factor.
  3. Find the solution to the following problem:
    Given ALL the following:
    -You, as a thinking, feeling, acting, living being exist in solitude (Hint: It is best to think of yourself existing as a single-celled being, similar to how you first came to be).
    -There is nothing else in existence.
    -The only method to create something, living or non-living, is to first think of it in full detail.
    -You want to experience limitless happiness without ever losing peace.
    How do you make that happen?

#17

[quote="PJM, post:4, topic:286542"]
There is Only One Catholic Church with its One set of Beliefs and MANY, MANY times that amount of other sets of faith beliefs. WHY? HOW?

Is truth not "One"?

Is there no way to determine what the bible REALLY Say's?

Are there No "infallible" standards of judgement?

Can [not may] just anyone pick up a bible and teach it truths? WHY or WHY NOT?:shrug:

Hope this clerifies my questions?

God Bless,
pat /PJM

[/quote]

Problem today is that many people are self-made theologians and come down to their own conclusions. Yes...Truth is one just as Jesus said He and His Father are ONE! The human heart is hard my friend...very hard at times.


#18

[quote="PJM, post:4, topic:286542"]
There is Only One Catholic Church with its One set of Beliefs

[/quote]

Agreed.

and MANY, MANY times that amount of other sets of faith beliefs.

It does?

WHY? HOW?

Those are the questions I would like to ask you. Where does the teaching of the Catholic Church amount to opposing sets of beliefs?

Only those who deny, reject and defect from the Catholic faith have opposing beliefs. But their errors are not the Church's fault.

Is truth not "One"?

Yes. And Christ deposited that truth with the Catholic Church.

Is there no way to determine what the bible REALLY Say's?

Yes. Come to the Catholic Church and obey Her instructions.

Are there No "infallible" standards of judgement?

Scripture and Tradition and Magisterial Teaching.

Can [not may] just anyone pick up a bible and teach it truths? WHY or WHY NOT?:shrug:

Are you asking whether anyone may pick up the bible and teach its truths?

The answer is, "Yes, but not infallibly. Only the Catholic Church teaches the Truths of God infallibly. The New Testament is evidence of that fact."

Non Catholics frequently are side tracked by this idea of picking up the Bible and finding the truth. They forget that Jesus did not write a single letter of Scripture. Jesus established the Church and commanded the Church to teach His Truths.

If you want to learn the Truth, go to the Church. The Church will teach you the Truth in her Traditions which include the proper understanding of the Bible. And without which the Bible can not be understood correctly.

Hope this clerifies my questions?

God Bless,
pat /PJM

I hope that answers your questions.

Sincerely,

De Maria


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