The book: Liberalism is a Sin (Tan Books) teaches there is Salvation for Protestants


#1

Merry Christmas to all!

The book “Liberalism is a sin” (Tan Books) condones that Protestants are saved!

But it has always been taught that Protestants are heretics and outside the pale of the Church – which is it?

Also, I have read that Fr. Michael Muller C.SS.R. wrote a book:

The Catholic Dogma 1888 that condemns that those that are in invicible ignorance can be saved and go to heaven.

And that: Orestes Brownson was haled as defending the Dogma of No Salvation along with the Archbishop George Hay that wrote a book called: The Sincere Christian.

And, everyone knows that according to John Paul II and Vatican II that Protestants, nay even Buddists can be saved outside the Church.

And, according to Dr. Drummey’s Book: Catholic Replies (see pages 99-100) the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued a letter to the Archbishop of Worester (Massachusetts) that a “strict” interpetation or a “liberal” one can be accepted in regard to Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus – which is it?

After all I guess Fr. Feeney’s doctrine which seemed as Protestants believe what the Catholic Church always taught was not heresy – that there really was NO salvation outside the Church.

Lastly, all the books I have read on the issue of salvation teach, nay even Karl Keating and the “big rock” Jimmy Akien that unless one knows in his mind and is convicted that he is committing a sin then he is not responsible. That, one must “actually know” that is, even if someone showed him the truth and he did not comprehend it or was convicted of it – then he can still be saved! — is this true?

Protestants according to these things can be saved! Or can they?

Now, the Book Liberalism is a sin (Tan Books, Chapter 15, pg. 72-73):

“By a very natural consequence, when the hierarch of a diocese fell into error, most of his subordinates–clerics and laity full of confidence in their pastor–fell with him. This was all the easier, owing to the difficulty of communication with Rome in ancient times, when the infallible voice of the Universal Pastor could not readily reach the flock in parts remote from the Chair of Peter. The diffusion of many ancient heresies, which were mostly purely theological, was nearly always due to this cause. Hence we find St. Jerome crying out in the fourth century: Ingemuit universus orbis se esse Arianum: “The whole world goaned to find itself Arian.” This also explains how in the midst of great schisms and great heresies, such as the Greek Schism and Anglican heresy, there may be numbers of souls in whom the roots of the True Faith are not dead, although in its exterior profession this faith may appear deformed and vicious. Such was the case in England for many years after the rebellion of Henry VIII, and such, in some instances, is the case in our own times [1886], for the ready acceptance of the True Faith by many English converts of recent years bears ample witness to the vitality of the Faith in souls so grossly betrayed into heresy by apostate guides three centuries ago *. **Such souls, united to the Mystical Body of the Church by Baptism, by interior Sanctifying Grace, are able to gain eternal salvation with ourselves.” ***
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Yours,


BobbyBaptist


PS


I heard that Fr. Faber taught that there is salvation outside the Church – any help? Where? What book and page?[/size]


#2

Bobby,

No heretic is ever saved. Every single heretic, without exception, will descend into hell immediately upon death, and remain there for as long as God is God. That is the dogmatic teaching of the Church that will never change.

There is also no salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church, because it alone is the body of Christ; and only members of the Body of Christ will be saved. In the Old Testament the Catholic Church was prefigured by Noah’s Ark: Just as no one outside the Ark was saved, so too no one outside the Church will be saved.

Both of those two paragraphs represent the dogmatic and objective truth taught by God, through the Church.

What becomes a little confusing to many is the matter of invincible ignorance. A heretic is one who refuses to believe a truth revealed by God. On the otherhand, an invincibly ignorant person also does not believe the truth, but only because he is unaware of it: he does not reject the truth, but is ignorant of it. An invincibly ignorant person with implicit faith would believe the truth if it were made known to him. Such people are no only, NOT heretics, but they can even possess supernatural faith, if they have been baptized. But only God knows who such people are; or if any such people even exist today.

A person who is invincibly irgnorant of the truth - that is, ignorant “through no fault of their own” is not guilty of heresy, since he has not explicitly rejected any truth. If such a person was baptised (such as a Protestant), and if they had implicit faith (that is, they are so disposed that they would believe the truth if it was presented to them), they could possibly still obtain salvation. Although it would be very rare, the Church does allow for that possibility. But we must remember that we are not saved by “faith alone” and therefore heresy is not the only sin that will condemn us. We are also condemned for breaking the other nine commandments and not repenting of it with perfect contrition (which is not humanly possible, but requires God’s assistance and our cooperation).

Continue…


#3

The Church teaches that there is salvation for those out of the visible confines of the Roman Catholic Church. The Catechism states

[quote=CCC]Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 “All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.”

837 “Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’”

838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”
[/quote]

Further:

[quote=CCC]848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”
[/quote]

John

PS: Bobby, if you want current Catholic teaching, TAN books is not the source.

Merry Christmas!


#4

continuation of last post.

Outside the Church no salvation. When a non-heretic is baptized they are incorporated into the Church. Remember what a heretic is: a heretic is someone who rejects a truth revealed by God. As we discusses above, an invincibly ignorant person (if any other than children exist today) are not guilty of rejecting the truth, since they are unaware of it “through no fault of their own”.

If such a person is baptized, and if that baptism is valid, they become a member of the body of Christ (thus, they are spiritually Catholics, although if Protestants, they are objectively heretics).

On the other hand, if a heretic (one who knowingly rejects any truth of the Catholic faith) is baptized they do not receive the Holy Spirit, but only the “character” of baptism.

In my opinion it does little good, and much harm, for the Catholic Churchmen to continually discuss the possibility of salvation for the invincibly ignorant; I believe they should focus on the objective truth. If you read older writings you will see that this is the way the Churchmen always used to teach. They taught the objective truth that all heretics were lost (which is true), then merely allowed for the possibility of God working outside this general order. Today, however, the emphasis has been placed on the possibility of an invincibly ignorant person obtaining salvation, with almost no mention being made of the objective truth. This has only led to confusion with many Catholics, and even to a denial of the objective truth.


#5

It’s erroneous to argue from potentiality to actuality.

Just because you can, doesn’t mean you will. If I buy a lottery ticket, I can win. But you wouldn’t bet that just because I can, that I will– or did win– in fact.

The Church teaches that those who, “through no fault of their own,” are ignorant of Christ and His Church can be saved. It doesn’t say will be saved. Even Liberalism is a Sin uses the terms “may be” and “are able to”. Those are words of potentiality not actuality.

Big difference.


#6

Originally Posted by CCC
*848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.” *

"through no fault of their own"





*[size=5]BIG HUGE[/size] *
***GIGANTIC ***
STATEMENT!


#7

Also, concerning the Popes statements about non-christians being saved.We as Christians who always pray for their conversions can not put limits on Our Lords Mercy.We know that the natural law is written in our hearts,and if someone is raised outside of the Christian Faith and follow what God has written in their hearts, we always have hope that Jesus who is Lord can reveal himself to the person,in his last breath.Just because, the person may not know Jesus does not negate the fact of Jesus being the Savior. As Christians we have an advantage,but with God Nothing is impossible:) God Bless


#8

Lisa,

Also, concerning the Popes statements about non-christians being saved.We as Christians who always pray for their conversions can not put limits on Our Lords Mercy.We know that the natural law is written in our hearts,and if someone is raised outside of the Christian Faith and follow what God has written in their hearts, we always have hope that Jesus who is Lord can reveal himself to the person,in his last breath.Just because, the person may not know Jesus does not negate the fact of Jesus being the Savior. As Christians we have an advantage,but with God Nothing is impossible:) God Bless

As “CATHOLIC CHRISTIANS” we have an incredible advantage!
EXAMPLE: The Eucharist!

John


#9

people why dont u listen??? I have said this time and time again…in order for a non-catholic to be saved he has to be invincibly ignorant… that means the ignorance he holds must not be his fault… and he lives and follows God to the best of his ability he has “implicit faith” ----so if the protestant is ignorant and the ignorance is his fault then he will go to hell --of course only God knows who is invincibly ignorant, so since we dont know our objective as catholics should bew convert everyone because unless they are invincibly ignorant then they run the risk of eternal damnation… now as far as the “strict” and “liberal” interpretation … one msut hold that invincible ignorance and implicit faith is possible for someone to posses but one can hold a theory (opinion) that nobody actually is–again only God knows…that is what the Church means when it says u can, in good faith, hold the strict interpretation…and the current pope does not say buddhist and muslms can be saved if they are judged as a buddhist and a muslim----


#10

people why dont u listen??? I have said this time and time again…in order for a non-catholic to be saved he has to be invincibly ignorant… that means the ignorance he holds must not be his fault… and he lives and follows God to the best of his ability he has “implicit faith” ----so if the protestant is ignorant and the ignorance is his fault then he will go to hell --of course only God knows who is invincibly ignorant, so since we dont know our objective as catholics should bew convert everyone because unless they are invincibly ignorant then they run the risk of eternal damnation… now as far as the “strict” and “liberal” interpretation … one msut hold that invincible ignorance and implicit faith is possible for someone to posses but one can hold a theory (opinion) that nobody actually is–again only God knows…that is what the Church means when it says u can, in good faith, hold the strict interpretation…and the current pope does not say buddhist and muslms can be saved if they are judged as a buddhist and a muslim----

That’s why we all carry out our salvation in fear and trembling! Jesus said that few people will be saved.

Keep up the good fight Marine Boy!

John


#11

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