The Case of Sola-L and Sola-C


#1

There is another thread concerning Liberal Christianity. It comes as no surprise that Protestant thought is divided and the question is why and over what? I discovered this stuff that makes sense and it caused me to reflect. Often new posters come trying to prove Sola Scriptura however the question has to be asked from which Protestant orientation are they coming from...Sola Conservative or Sola Liberal?

Splits within Protestantism:

There have been many reasons why Protestant denominations split, and re-split. Some are:

** Theological differences**: e.g. disputes over baptism, salvation, the nature of Jesus, etc. From the wide diversity of beliefs among Protestants, it is apparent that the Bible contains a great deal of ambiguous text which can be interpreted in very different ways.

**Church organization: **e.g. the role of the laity vs. the church leadership; components of the religious service; whether power should be concentrated in one individual or spread democratically; the degree of spiritual autonomy of the individual, and of each congregation, etc.

Other factors: Some have split over major moral issues. A few large American denominations split over the abolition of slavery in the middle of the 19th century. Some split today over whether females can be considered for ordination. Some observers believe that the Episcopal Church USA, Anglican Church of Canada, the Presbyterian Church (USA) and/or the United Methodist Church may be unable to reach a compromise position over equal rights for gays and lesbians, including church membership, ordination and the recognition of same-sex committed relationships. Some of these denominations may be headed towards a schism.

On the origin of the Bible:
Very conservative Christians generally believe that the Christian leaders of the 4th century who selected those books that were to be included in the official canon were inspired by God to reject all heretical texts and incorporate only those books whose authors were inspired by God and whose texts were inerrant -- free of error in their original form. For example, they believe that the Christian leaders at the time selected the only four valid gospels out of the approximately 40 gospels then being used by various Christian groups.

Very liberal Christians generally believe that when the official canon of the Bible was selected, the church leaders picked those books which most closely matched their own beliefs and rejected books that excessively promoted Gnostic Christianity or Jewish Christianity. For example, the 4th century Church accepted the Gospels of Mark, Matthew and Luke because they harmonized well with each other and with the beliefs of the 4th century church. The Gospel of John had a more difficult time being accepted because some viewed it as having excessive Gnostic content. However, it was finally allowed into the canon, with reluctance, and profoundly changed the beliefs of the Christian movement thereafter.

Liberal author Marcus Borg comments:

"Conflict about how to see and read the Bible is the single greatest issue dividing Christians in North America today. On one side of the divide are fundamentalist and many conservative-evangelical Christians. On the other side are moderate-to-liberal Christians, mostly in mainline denominations. Separating the two groups are two very different ways of seeing three foundational questions about the Bible: questions about its origin, its authority and its interpretation."

Protestant thought exists, Protestants are divided on the origin of the Bible, Protestants are divided and it is stated that the reason is based on how someone sees and reads the Bible. Often we see many that have little notion as to where the Bible came from but here we have not one Sola but two.:confused:

What thinkest thou....Sola one and Sola two:eek:


#2

I thinketh that Catholics are just as divided as Protestants. There are Liberal Catholics (yuck!) just like in Protestantism. We are all divided and to say one group has unity over the other is imho delusional


#3

[quote="cath4alltime, post:2, topic:294098"]
I thinketh that Catholics are just as divided as Protestants. There are Liberal Catholics (yuck!) just like in Protestantism. We are all divided and to say one group has unity over the other is imho delusional

[/quote]

Cath,

As you know 4 all time the OHCAC has not used Sola Scriptura and if you see division it is not relevant to the notion of Sola Scriptura one or Sola Scriptura two. Is there a Magesterium one and Magesterium two?


#4

[quote="CopticChristian, post:3, topic:294098"]
Cath,

As you know 4 all time the OHCAC has not used Sola Scriptura and if you see division it is not relevant to the notion of Sola Scriptura one or Sola Scriptura two. Is there a Magesterium one and Magesterium two?

[/quote]

What the heck is OHCAC?!?. To say Catholics are unified is to lie to yourself, Scripture alone is not needed for division just simple humanity will do, so please drop the sanctimonious attitude that it's only Scripture alone that divides .


#5

[quote="cath4alltime, post:4, topic:294098"]
What the heck is OHCAC?!?. To say Catholics are unified is to lie to yourself, Scripture alone is not needed for division just simple humanity will do, so please drop the sanctimonious attitude that it's only Scripture alone that divides .

[/quote]

One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. There is no division, there may be disagreements, but those who do not believe in the Church and the Teaching of the Magisterium may call themselves "Catholic", but they are not. It's not sanctimonious to point out that we have one teaching body that sets the standard for what we believe. There is no such authority to fall back on in Protestantism.

God bless.

-Paul


#6

Liberal Catholics, Traditionalist Catholics to name a few. Yep that's unity, no Catholicism is not united just most internet jockeys give the delusion of unity. I been both and there are just as much disunity as any other Church. I have come to the conclusion that Catholicism is not unique or unified


#7

[quote="cath4alltime, post:6, topic:294098"]
Liberal Catholics, Traditionalist Catholics to name a few. Yep that's unity, no Catholicism is not united just most internet jockeys give the delusion of unity. I been both and there are just as much disunity as any other Church. I have come to the conclusion that Catholicism is not unique or unified

[/quote]

Well I am sorry to hear you feel that way, I will pray that you see the Truth and Unity that is in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

God bless.

-Paul


#8

Been here for 20 years haven’t seen any unity yet.


#9

Official, orthodox (small O) Catholic teaching has been and always will be unified. If an idea does not conform, then no matter what the dissident claims, it is not true Catholic thought. There is a difference between the unity/continuity of official teachings and the individuals who follow these teachings in one way or another.

:twocents:


#10

[quote="cath4alltime, post:8, topic:294098"]
Been here for 20 years haven't seen any unity yet.

[/quote]

Well I will pray that you will see things as they truly are. Just because there are Liberal Catholics and Traditional Catholics, we are still Catholics. Those who do not believe in the Church Teaching and Magisterium and dissent are not Catholic. There truly is one Catholic Church, the Mass is the same wherever you go throughout the entire world, we are unified in that we have one leader, the Holy Father, one Magisterium, one Catechism. On the fundamental aspects of Catholicism, you will hear the same thing in every single Church, we are unified by Christ, regardless of disagreement on matters open to discussion.

There is nothing comparable in Protestantism, you can go to thousands of different Protestant services and hear thousands of different things, the Teaching of the Church is the same, and again, you will see that reflected in our services.

I am sorry you do not see the beautiful and truly remarkable unity in that, and I will pray that you will see that.

God bless.

-Paul


#11

Cath,

I would say that it is safe to say you disagree with me.


#12

[quote="cath4alltime, post:8, topic:294098"]
Been here for 20 years haven't seen any unity yet.

[/quote]

Cath,

As a former Evangelical, AOG, convert, revert, I understand. You see what you choose to see.

The Church is united on the Eucharist. Start here.

The Church is united on 7 sacraments...

Can you accept this unity?


#13

[quote="CopticChristian, post:11, topic:294098"]
Cath,

I would say that it is safe to say you disagree with me.

[/quote]

Yea :D


#14

No.


#15

[quote="cath4alltime, post:14, topic:294098"]
No.

[/quote]

Cath,

Well then what we have here is a failure to communicate!

I see that your yes is more dynamic than your no indicating to me that you put more thought into the yes than the no. There is hope.


#16

[quote="cath4alltime, post:14, topic:294098"]
No.

[/quote]

Cath,

Would you agree that Sola Scriptura is a praxis but nowhere do we find in Scripture that we are to follow the Bible alone?


#17

[quote="CopticChristian, post:15, topic:294098"]
Cath,

Well then what we have here is a failure to communicate!

I see that your yes is more dynamic than your no indicating to me that you put more thought into the yes than the no. There is hope.

[/quote]

No, I am just being lazy:)


#18

[quote="CopticChristian, post:16, topic:294098"]
Cath,

Would you agree that Sola Scriptura is a praxis but nowhere do we find in Scripture that we are to follow the Bible alone?

[/quote]

I actually just found out recently it's a praxis, never thought of it that way even when I was a happy Protestant. Being a praxis of course it would not be in the Bible. Of course there is not a lot of things from the CC in the Bible either


#19

[quote="cath4alltime, post:18, topic:294098"]
I actually just found out recently it's a praxis, never thought of it that way even when I was a happy Protestant. Being a praxis of course it would not be in the Bible. Of course there is not a lot of things from the CC in the Bible either

[/quote]

Cath,

The Catholic Church is not based on Sola-L or Sola-C.

As a Catholic that was catechized the teachings are based on an Apostolic Faith that is based on Scripture and Tradition. There is as you know what is called the Sufficiency of Scripture. The Catholic view is Material Sufficiency as opposed to Formal Sufficiency.

This is explained here.

catholicfidelity.com/apologetics-topics/sola-scriptura/material-vs-formal-sufficiency-of-scripture-by-mark-shea/


#20

[quote="PJD1987, post:7, topic:294098"]
I will pray that you see the Truth and Unity that is in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

God bless.

[/quote]

Who is united? Under what? How do we know when someone is not united?


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