[quote="incloz, post:3, topic:299659"]
I'm not meaning to attack or disrespect,
Glad you clarified this since your opening post was....uummmmm.....rather direct...:whistle:
I just find it hard to reconcile the actions of church leadership.
Join the club....To me one of the amazing things about the Church is how it survived some of it's leaders.
Something I kind of wonder though....How many corrupt OT leaders were there? Even David "a man after God's heart" committed terrible crimes. Yet - for all of the corruption, the wandering from the path of righteousness that can be seen in the OT...even to God allowing the nation to be overrun and carried off...to 10 of the 12 tribes being lost forever...For all of that, did the nation of Israel ever stop being God's "Chosen people"?
something to think about...
I understand we are all sinners, but there is a point of pure evil.
Yes we are all sinners...and Yes there is a point of "pure evil" but can you say that the various church leaders actually reached the point of pure evil.
For instance sinners usually confess their sins and genuinely feel sorry and want to change, did the popes that condoned torture and killing ask forgiveness or feel sorry?
I don't know if they did or not...do you?
When leadership unquestionably goes against Christ, I think there is a problem.
Amen - but the question is - does the problem with an individual invalidate essential Church teaching.
Have you ever known a protestant pastor or evangelist or Scholar to misinterpret the Bible? Does the error of the individual invalidate the teachings of the Bible?
The answer of course is no it does not. Same with the Church - the teachings are true regardless of the less than stellar performance of some of the office-holders.
We can say the same with the reformers who do not follow certain commands of Christ, but torture and murder is different.
hhmmmm....Not to disrespect, but why is it that reformers are described as "not following certain commands of Christ", while Catholic leaders are intimated to be approaching "pure evil"...and as far as torture and murder is concerned...Reformers have sufficient blood on their hands as well.
Leaders that committed such crimes should have been taken from power. Christ's own words would have shown their horrid crimes to truth, life, love, compassion and mercy.
It is, in my opinion, unfortunate that the western Church became so tangled in temporal matters and civil rule after the fall of the western Empire. But that is just what happened. The Holy Spirit WAS active though and managed to protect the Church and her teachings.
Here is something to consider though...
The more corrupt a leader, the less interested he was in things spiritual. Since he was not that interested in spiritual matters he did not attempt to "fool around with" or subvert Church teachings on matters of faith and morals.
The more holy leaders were, of course not about to subvert the teachings of Christ and His Church.
The Eastern Church developed differently since the Empire there did not collapse for another millenia or so. It developed along side the civil rulers and while having great influence, the patriarchs of the East did not wear the dual hats of spiritual leader and temporal leader. Of course this system had it's problems too as it tended to make the Church a bit more subservient to the state.
In any event... It is good that the Pope is no longer the King of vast temporal lands.