The Catholic Church is just another denomination


#1

This post was brought over from a closed thread entitled "Believing all the Teachings of the Church on the apologetics forum
forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=131728&page=6

Originally Posted by jmcrae

I agree with this. (The Catholic Church is not a denomination: it is the original that was founded by Christ. The various different denominations divided away from the Catholic Church because they could not agree with certain essential teachings - different ones in each case.)

Response by Carol Coombe

Let me differ. The Catholic Church of Rome was founded by Christ and His apostles. In that sense it is the Mother Church. Its early life was miraculous and mostly blessed. Then things got very sticky during the Mediaeval period. We all know the story so I shall not go into the details of usury, simony, dual papacies, non-celibate religious (including Popes), wars and rumours of war, and serious Machiavellian strife.

There was rebellion within the Church. Martin Luther spoke out - and there are some religious who now believe that if the Church had engaged with Luther there would not have been a schism. Henry VIII had his own very personal reasons for splitting and founding his English church. There were other scholars, clergy and laymen however, who established a different Christian tradition which continues to this day.

The Methodists, the Baptists, the United Church of Canada and of Zambia, the Quakers, the Presbyterians, the Anglicans and others are customarily referred to as ‘Protestants’, and the Mother Church as the ‘Roman Catholic Church’. It is assumed by Catholics that the RCC is not a Christian denomination, but still the epitome of Christian faith, unique and infallible wrt the universal church.

Are your saying that, in the light of all the above, that The Catholic Church lost her infallibility? That she is no longer the one true church?

It is time to stop calling Churches that quit the authority of the Roman Church ‘Protestants’ (from ‘protest’) or to describe them as ‘non-Catholics’. They are no longer protesting, and they are not non-Catholics: they are what they are in their own right. The RCC is as much a denomination as any other Christian Church of merit.

If they are no longer protesting, then why are they still “quit”? How are they not "non-Catholics?

The Catholic Church Church It is the repository, constant and reasonably consistent, of the history of our faith. No other Church has this capacity. The commitment of the Catholic Church to teaching the faith, within varying cultural contexts of course, to young people worldwide is outstanding. The Church is a global educator, with regional and local variations, and as such a generator, promoter and perpetuator of humane values.
The Church hierarchy and all its administrative outposts represent an international structure which is highly visible, reasonably well organised, and in most places committed to socioeconomic development. RCC has the potential administrative capacity to do much in the world that is humane. The Church, and its clergy, have brought comfort to millions. The Church’s fundamental care and compassion (especially after Vatican II), its practical response to human suffering, and its growing awareness of its responsibilities to individual and collective suffering make it a principal power for the relief of distress. And of course many thought John Paul II was a pretty good guy.

Beyond that however, let us think outside our boxes, change our mental landscapes, and create a level playing field here. RCC is no longer ‘king of the castle’ with others coming to it for instruction and advice, or monitoring their own performance against its criteria. It is time to recognise that Christians who do not accept the principal tenets of the Catholic faith are simply themselves - Christians by another name which re
flects their own beliefs, drawn from various sources [and don’t bother to post a reply on cafeteria choices], according to their own environment, needs and cultural contexts.

Blessings
Carol Coombe
Junior Member

I also have a problem with that “king of the castle” thinking. Jesus was very clear in His teachings that the one who wants to be the head must be the servant of all. You have noted truthfully that there have been popes that did not life out this teaching in their personal lives, fell into temporal wars, greed, and abandoned their celibate vows. I suppose you could call them those Cafeteria Christians that you are saying I should not bother posting about. It seems like your solution is to disregard the notion that Jesus would preserve His church through all this, and that every believer should choose what works best for themselves.


#2

Ms Coombe makes the mistake that many theological liberals and relativists do today; viewing the Church’s temporal mission as the only facet of import. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Throughout salvation history, God communicated with, taught, and disciplined His people through the use of various covenants. When He came to earth in the incarnation, He gave us the final covenant - the culmination of all the previous covenants - when He told us He was establishing His Church. He reigns over His kingdom today. That kingdom is the Holy Catholic Church in Heaven, in Purgatory and on Earth.

He wants us all to be a part of His family.


#3

It seems like your solution is to disregard the notion that Jesus would preserve His church through all this, and that every believer should choose what works best for themselves.

The catholic church doesn’t equal the Roman Catholic church
I feel there is a certain amount of sinful pride among Roman Catholics. Not belonging to the RCC doesn’t mean one is in a theological vacuum. Does Alex Jones say that (former Pentecostal pastor and Catholic convert)? No he doesn’t.


#4

I think that is the premise for most of this line of reasoning. It seems to deny we each can know objective truth. Or, we each can know it but understand it in radically different ways. Which means there is no one authority to preserve the faith. Which means we subscribe to a type of moral relativism.


#5

Not believing in the Catholic Church means moral relativism?
:rolleyes:


#6

I would argue in an objective sense it always does. In each subjective case, one may or may not be culpable.

Following the quote in the OP one could easily claim the Church is wrong about something like contraception. They could find a Church where that is taught as morally licit. Now, who is the authority in such a case? Obviously, the individual is? Right? If each person is the final authority on revealed truth and the natural law we are going to get conflicting answers. How do we know who has gotten it right?


#7

Yup.

( long pause )

Without a single point of authority, there MUST be the relativism of “personal opinion”.

With “personal opinion”, based on nothing more than “human decision processes”, there is factionalization.

And what is the result of factionalization…?

The non-Catholic Christian denominations.

A person doesn’t HAVE to agree that the Catholic Church IS “THE CHURCH”, and that all other Christian denominations are “errant children”,… but to believe otherwise will be dealt with by God as He sees fit. (Big “Duh” there, eh…!?)

The question is: You willing to take that chance?

Just as “Protestants” (I prefer the term ‘revolters’ but no one likes to hear that :slight_smile: ) don’t “leave the denomination” simply because some Pastor pulls a “Swaggert”, Catholics realize that the church is MORE than the history of it’s constituent parts (laity, clergy and Popes).

It’s up to you to make your own choices.

(( Unless you’re one of those “non-freewill” types, of course…! ))

Blessings on 'ya…!


#8

It’s a self-evident truth that having one person with absolute executive powers makes moral relativism impossible. That is not the same as being right however. It just ensures orthodoxy.
All Christians believe in a single authority - GOD!


#9

There is one supreme law giver-God. There is one living authority who can relate His truth without error in matters of faith and morals- The Cathilic Church.

That is not the same as being right however. It just ensures orthodoxy.
All Christians believe in a single authority - GOD!

They may all believe in Christ, yet they all contradict each other in matters of faith and morals. Who is correct?


#10

The majority of Christians I believe have more in common than you think. Who is correct? I believe that is up to God to decide and adjudicate.


#11

God has decided. it is the church that He established. the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic church!


#12

God has decided. it is the church that He established. the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic church!

All other churches were created by “some guy”.


#13

More or less in common is not the issue. God has decided and He has revealed it to us. You have reasoned we cannot know?


#14

Verily you speak the truth. Roman Catholics who do not recognize the Body of Christ outside her Roman Borders are in error. From the Cathchism:

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

Also as the late John Paul II pointed out, we are in most need of “the light of the East” meaning refreshment and re-education from our Eastern brethren from whom the Latins separated themselves.


#15

Your position is that no one person can EVER be infallible in regards to any issue.

Do you agree with that?

The Catholic position (truth) is that a single person with input from an institution (if wanted by the person in question) CAN be infallible within bounds (faith and morals).

Your statement that orthodoxy does not equal being “right” is agreeable.

Your implication that our (Catholic) authority is not “right” is wrong, and a disagreement between us.

So you’re stating he obvious, without making any meaningful additional statements.

In other words, we KNOW you don’t think the Pope infallible, but where IS the infallibility in interpretation (concerning scripture) located for you?


#16

jack hawkins
The catholic church doesn’t equal the Roman Catholic church
I feel there is a certain amount of sinful pride among Roman Catholics. Not belonging to the RCC doesn’t mean one is in a theological vacuum. Does Alex Jones say that (former Pentecostal pastor and Catholic convert)? No he doesn’t.

There is the word I feel again. I wouldn’t use feelings to justify judging Catholics, which you are doing? Do you presume what is in a man’s heart?

The Roman Catholic Church is the Latin Rite Church (West). That is how we would describe the Western Catholics. Our Eastern Rite or Byzantine Rite Catholic is also a member of this Body. The Church is not merely Roman Catholic. It is Catholic Church.

St. Ignatius of Antioch, the Apostle of St. John the Apostle describes the Jesus Christ’s Church very well in his writings.

((continue))


#17

#18

#19

Alex Jones, in his book No Price Too High says:

“The Catholic Church is the church of Jesus Christ. This is the Church that was inaugurated in the Upper Room. This is the Church that has the gifts of perpetuity and incorruptibility. This is the Church of Jesus Christ, and what it teaches is truth!”

he also brought about 52 people from his church into the fullness of truth.


#20

We’ve been over this territory before, so we are not going to change each other’s mind. However…

You believe (correct me if I’m wrong) that it’s the Catholic Church and only the Catholic Church that has God’s official stamp of approval.

I believe, while the Catholic Church, is the primary church of Christianity, and has been since the beginning, it doesn’t mean that God does not recognize the other churches of Christianity, and extend his blessing to them as well.

Whatever denomination we belong too depends on what our conscience and faith directs.


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