The Church Fathers on


#1

The Authority of Holy Scripture

“We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.” - St. Irenaeus (Against Heresies, 3:1.1, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I, p. 414.)

“The holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for the proclamation of the truth.” - St. Athanasius (Against the Heathen, I:3, quoted in Carl A. Volz, Faith and Practice in the Early Church [Minneapolis: Augsburg Publishing House, 1983], p. 147.)

“For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless you receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.” - St. Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures, IV:17, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers [Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1983 reprint], Second Series, Vol. VII, p. 2 .)

“…we are not entitled to such license, namely, of affirming whatever we please. For we make Sacred Scripture the rule and the norm of every doctrine. Upon that we are obliged to fix our eyes, and we approve only whatever can be brought into harmony with the intent of these writings.” - St. Gregory of Nyssa (On the Soul and the Resurrection, quoted in Jaroslav Pelikan, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition [Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971], p. 50.)

“Let the inspired Scriptures then be our umpire, and the vote of truth will be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words.” - St. Gregory of Nyssa (On the Holy Trinity, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. V, p. 327.)

“Let them show their church if they can, not by the speeches and mumblings of the Africans, not by the councils of their bishops, not by the writings of any of their champions, not by fraudulent signs and wonders, because we have been prepared and made cautious also against these things by the Word of the Lord; but [let them show their church] by a command of the Law, by the predictions of the prophets, by songs from the Psalms, by the words of the Shepherd Himself, by the preaching and labors of the evangelists; that is, by all the canonical authorities of the sacred books.” St. Augustine of Hippo (On the Unity of the Church, 16, quoted in Martin Chemnitz, Examination of the Council of Trent, Part I [Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1971], p. 159.)

"What more can I teach you, than what we read in the Apostle? For Holy Scripture sets a rule to our teaching, that we dare not “be wise more than it behooves to be wise,” but be wise, as he says, “unto soberness, according as unto each God has allotted the measure of faith.” - St. Augustine of Hippo (On the Good of Widowhood, 2, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. III, p. 442. The quotation is from Romans 12:3.)

“Regarding the things I say, I should supply even the proofs, so I will not seem to rely on my own opinions, but rather, prove them with Scripture, so that the matter will remain certain and steadfast.” - St. John Chrysostom (Homily 8 On Repentance and the Church, in The Fathers of the Church, Vol. 96, p. 118.)

“They say that we are to understand the things concerning Paradise not as they are written but in a different way. But when Scripture wants to teach us something like that, it interprets itself and does not permit the hearer to err. I therefore beg and entreat that we close our eyes to all things and follow the canon of Holy Scripture exactly.” - St. John Chrysostom (Homily 13 on Genesis.)

“They are charging me with innovation, and base their charge on my confession of three hypostases [persons], and blame me for asserting one Goodness, one Power, one Godhead. In this they are not wide of the truth, for I do so assert. Their complaint is that their custom does not accept this, and that Scripture does not agree. What is my reply? I do not consider it fair that the custom which obtains among them should be regarded as a law and rule of orthodoxy. If custom is to be taken in proof of what is right, then it is certainly competent for me to put forward on my side the custom which obtains here. If they reject this, we are clearly not bound to follow them. Therefore let God-inspired Scripture decide between us; and on whichever side be found doctrines in harmony with the Word of God, in favor of that side will be cast the vote of truth.” - St. Basil the Great (Letter 189 [to Eustathius the physician], 3, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. VIII, p. 229.)

“We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture.” - St. Basil the Great (On the Holy Spirit, 7:16.)

“It is impossible either to say or fully to understand anything about God beyond what has been divinely proclaimed to us, whether told or revealed, by the sacred declarations of the Old and New Testaments.” - St. John of Damascus (On the Orthodox Faith, I:2, in The Fathers of the Church, Vol. 37.)


#2

Holy Scripture on the Authority of the Fathers of the Church

(Isn’t this a nice - if ironic - exchange?)

To Moses, “[Aaron] shall speak to the people for you: he shall be your spokesman, and you shall be as God to him.” (Ex. 4:16)

“But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.” (1 Tim 3:15)

“Jesus said to him in reply, ‘Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you** (singular)** the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven’.” (Matt 16:17-19)

“Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” (Luke 10:16)

And the list goes on and on…

Let him who has ears to hear do so. Just as The Father, Son, and Spirit are one in Being, though they be three different persons, so are Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium one word, though they may appear as three distinct manifestations.

SK


#3

Justification

“He Himself took on Him the burden of our iniquities, He gave His own Son as a ransom for us, the holy One for transgressors, the blameless One for the wicked, the righteous One for the unrighteous, the incorruptible One for the corruptible, the immortal One for them that are mortal. For what other thing was capable of covering our sins than His righteousness? By what other one was it possible that we, the wicked and ungodly, could be justified, than by the only Son of God? O sweet exchange (substitution)! O unsearchable operation! O benefits surpassing all expectation! that the wickedness of many should be hid in a single righteous One, and that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors! Having therefore convinced us in the former time that our nature was unable to attain to life, and having now revealed the Savior who is able to save even those things which it was [formerly] impossible to save, by both these facts He desired to lead us to trust in His kindness, to esteem Him our Nourisher, Father, Teacher, Counselor, Healer, our Wisdom, Light, Honor, Glory, Power, and Life, so that we should not be anxious concerning clothing and food.” - Mathetes (Ante-Nicene Fathers: Volume I, Mathetes to Diognetus, Chapter 9.)

“They said that he who adhered to faith alone was cursed; but he, Paul, shows that he who adhered to faith alone is blessed.” - St. John Chrysostom (First Corinthians, Homily 20, PG 61.164)

“For you believe the faith; why then do you add other things, as if faith were not sufficient to justify? You make yourselves captive, and you subject yourself to the law.” - St. John Chrysostom (Epistle to Titus, Homily 3, PG 62.651)

“They are justified freely because they have not done anything nor given anything in return, but by faith alone they have been made holy by the gift of God.” - Ambrosiaster (Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament VI: Romans, Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1998, p. 101. )

“Seeing then that the law condemned sinners and sometimes imposed the supreme penalty on those who disregarded it and was in no way merciful, how was the appointment of a truly compassionate and merciful high priest not necessary for those on earth; one who would abrogate the curse, check the legal process, and free the sinners with forgiving grace and commands based on gentleness? ‘I,’ says the text, ‘I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins’ (Is. 43:25). For we are justified by faith, not by works of the law, as Scripture says (Gal. 2:16). By faith in whom, then, are we justified? Is it not in him who suffered death according to the flesh for our sake? Is it not in one Lord Jesus Christ?" - St. Cyril of Alexandria (Against Nestorius in Norman Russell, Cyril of Alexandria (London: Rutledge, 2000), p. 165.)

“Let him who boasts boast in the Lord, that Christ has been made by God for us righteousness, wisdom, justification, redemption. This is perfect and pure boasting in God, when one is not proud on account of his own righteousness but knows that he is indeed unworthy of the true righteousness and is (or has been) justified solely by faith in Christ." - St. Basil (Chemnitz, Examination of the Council of Trent, Part 1, p. 505)

“Thus I do not have the wherewithal to enable me to glory in my own works, I do not have the wherewithal to boast of myself, and so I will glory in Christ. I will not glory because I have been redeemed. I will not glory because I am free of sins, but because sins have been forgiven me. I will not glory because I am profitable or because anyone is profitable to me, but because Christ is an advocate in my behalf with the Father, because the blood of Christ has been poured out in my behalf.” - St. Ambrose (FC, Vol. 65, Saint Ambrose, Seven Exegetical Works, Jacob and the Happy Life, Book 1, 6.21 (Washington, D.C.: The Catholic University of America Press, 1972), p. 133.)


#4

Justification 2

“Think here of some godless sinner, who has no good works to show. What of him or her? What if such a person comes to believe in God who justifies the impious? People like that are impious because they accomplish nothing good; they may seem to do good things, but their actions cannot truly be called good, because performed without faith. But when someone believes in him who justifies the impious, that faith is reckoned as justice to the believer, as David too declares that person blessed whom God has accepted and endowed with righteousness, independently of any righteous actions (Rom 4:5-6). What righteousness is this? The righteousness of faith, preceded by no good works, but with good works as its consequence.” - St. Augustine of Hippo (John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., WSA, Part 1, Vol. 11, trans. Maria Boulding, O.S.B., Expositions of the Psalms 1-32, Exposition 2 of Psalm 31, ¡±7 (Hyde Park: New City Press, 2000), p. 370.)

“It would, of course, have been unthinkable that God should go back upon His word [Genesis 2:17] and that humanity, having transgressed, should not die. it was unthinkable that God, the Father of Truth, should go back on His word regarding death [Genesis 2:17] in order to ensure our continued existence. He could not make Himself a liar. What, then, was God to do?. The Logos perceived that our perishing condition could not abolished except through death. Yet He Himself, as the Logos, being immortal and the Father’s Son, could not die. For this reason, therefore, He assumed a body capable of death, in order that this body, through belonging to the Logos Who is above all, might become a sufficient exchange in dying for all. His body, remaining imperishable through His indwelling, would thereafter put an end to perishing for all others as well, by the grace of the resurrection. By surrendering to death the body which He had taken, as an offering and sacrifice free from every stain, He immediately abolished death for His human brothers by the offering of the equivalent. For naturally, since the Logos of God was above all, when He offered His own temple and bodily instrument as a substitute for the life of all, He fulfilled by death all that was required.” - St. Athanasius (On the Incarnation of the Logos, 6-7, 9).

“God justifies by faith alone. (Deus ex sola fide justificat)." - St. Jerome (In Epistolam Ad Romanos, Caput X, v. 3, PL 30:692D.)

“Sin abounded by the Law because through the Law came knowledge of sin and it became harmful for me to know what through my weakness I could not avoid. It is good to know beforehand what one is to avoid, but, if I cannot avoid something, it is harmful to have known about it. Thus was the Law changed to its opposite, yet it became useful to me by the very increase of sin, for I was humbled. And David therefore says: “It is good for me that I have been humbled” [Psalm 119:71]. By humbling myself I have broken the bonds of that ancient transgression by which Adam and Eve had bound the whole line of their succession. Hence, too, the Lord came as an obedient man to loose the knot of man’s disobedience and deception. And as through disobedience sin entered, so through obedience sin was remitted. Therefore, the Apostle says: “For just as by the disobedience of one man the many were constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted just” [Romans 5:19]. Here is one reason that the Law was unnecessary and became necessary, unnecessary in that it would not have been needed if we had been able to keep the natural law; but, as we did not keep it, the Law of Moses became needful to teach me obedience and loosen that bond of Adam’s deception which had ensnared his whole posterity. Yes, guilt grew by the Law, but pride, the source of guilt, was loosed, and this was an advantage to me. Pride discovered the guilt and the guilt brought grace. Consider another reason. The Law of Moses was not needful; hence, it entered secretly. Its entrance seems not of an ordinary kind, but like something clandestine because it entered secretly into the place of the natural law. Thus, if she had but kept her place, this written law would never have entered it, but, since deception had banished that law and nearly blotted it out of the human breast, pride reigned and disobedience was rampant. Therefore, that other took its place so that by its written expression it might challenge us and shut our mouth, in order to make the whole world subject to God. The world, however, became subject to him through the Law, because all are brought to trial by the prescript of the Law, and no one is justified by the works of the Law; in other words, because the knowledge of sin comes from the Law, but guilt is not remitted, the Law, therefore, which has made all men sinners, seems to have caused harm. But, when the Lord Jesus came he forgave all men the sin they could not escape, and canceled the decree against us by shedding his blood [Colossians 2:14]. This is what he says: “By the Law sin abounded, but grace abounded by Jesus” [Romans 5:20], since after the whole world became subject he took away the sins of the whole world, as John bears witness, saying: “Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” [John 1:29] Let no one glory, then, in his own works, since no one is justified by his deeds, but one who is just has received a gift, being justified by Baptism. It is faith, therefore, which sets us free by the blood of Christ, for he is blessed whose sin is forgiven and to whom pardon is granted [Psalm 32:1].” - St. Ambrose (Epistle 73, in The Fathers of the Church 26, pp. 466-68.)


#5

The Bible on Justification

Matt 7:1-2

“Stop judging, that you may not be judged. For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you.”

Matt 7:18-23

"A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. 'Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?” Then I will declare to them solemnly, “I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.”

Matt 19:16-19

“Now someone approached him and said, ‘Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?’ He answered him, ‘Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.’ He asked him, ‘Which ones?’ And Jesus replied, ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

Matt 25:13-30

“Therefore, stay awake, for you know neither the day nor the hour. It will be as when a man who was going on a journey called in his servants and entrusted his possessions to them. To one he gave five talents; to another, two; to a third, one–to each according to his ability. Then he went away. Immediately the one who received five talents went and traded with them, and made another five. Likewise, the one who received two made another two. But the man who received one went off and dug a hole in the ground and buried his master’s money. After a long time the master of those servants came back and settled accounts with them. The one who had received five talents came forward bringing the additional five. He said, ‘Master, you gave me five talents. See, I have made five more.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. Since you were faithful in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities. Come, share your master’s joy.’ (Then) the one who had received two talents also came forward and said, ‘Master, you gave me two talents. See, I have made two more.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. Since you were faithful in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities. Come, share your master’s joy.’ Then the one who had received the one talent came forward and said, ‘Master, I knew you were a demanding person, harvesting where you did not plant and gathering where you did not scatter;
so out of fear I went off and buried your talent in the ground. Here it is back.’ His master said to him in reply, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I did not plant and gather where I did not scatter? Should you not then have put my money in the bank so that I could have got it back with interest on my return? Now then! Take the talent from him and give it to the one with ten. For to everyone who has, more will be given and he will grow rich; but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And throw this useless servant into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’”

Matt 25:31-46

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

(cont.)

SK


#6

Romans 2 (In its entirety)

"Therefore, you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment. For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things.

We know that the judgment of God on those who do such things is true. Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance?

By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. There is no partiality with God.

All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it. For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.

For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.

Now if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast of God and know his will and are able to discern what is important since you are instructed from the law, and if you are confident that you are a guide for the blind and a light for those in darkness, that you are a trainer of the foolish and teacher of the simple, because in the law you have the formulation of knowledge and truth-- then you who teach another, are you failing to teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? You who forbid adultery, do you commit adultery? You who detest idols, do you rob temples? You who boast of the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? For, as it is written, “Because of you the name of God is reviled among the Gentiles.”

Circumcision, to be sure, has value if you observe the law; but if you break the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. Again, if an uncircumcised man keeps the precepts of the law, will he not be considered circumcised? Indeed, those who are physically uncircumcised but carry out the law will pass judgment on you, with your written law and circumcision, who break the law.

One is not a Jew outwardly. True circumcision is not outward, in the flesh. Rather, one is a Jew inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit, not the letter; his praise is not from human beings but from God."

Romans 13:1-2

“Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves.”

James 2:24

“We see that a man is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.”

Again, let him who has ears to hear do so. Justification - “right standing” before God - is not a matter of either/or. It is not something man can do on his own or ultimately “merits” from God, but is also, by God’s design and the nature of love, not something God can do on His own either. God provides the grace and we either accept in the form of a good work or reject in the form of sin and are then either punished or rewarded accordingly.

SK


#7

“For my part, I should not believe the gospel except moved by
the authority of the Catholic Church.”
– Saint Augustine

Boy, if any ECFs did believe as Protestants do regarding Scriptures’ relationship to authority, it’s a good thing the Church saw through the fallacy and got over it or else, as is obvious from TriuneUnitiy’s posts, our views on justification might’ve gotten all skewed, too.


#8

Faith does justify. Just not alone. It’s the beginning and foundation of justification. I’d see the “Faith Alone” forum here on Apologetics :thumbsup:

I know you’ve been there, but still… :cool:


#9

“…We run, therefore, whenever we make advance; and our wholeness runs with us in our advance (just as a sore is said to run when the wound is in process of a sound and careful treatment), in order that we may be in every respect perfect, without any infirmity of sin whatever,— a result which God not only wishes, but even causes and helps us to accomplish. And this God’s grace does, in co-operation with ourselves, through Jesus Christ our Lord, as well by commandments, sacraments, and examples, as by His Holy Spirit also; through whom there is hiddenly shed abroad in our hearts Romans 5:5 that love, which makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered, Romans 8:26 until wholeness and salvation be perfected in us, and God be manifested to us as He will be seen in His eternal truth.”

  • **Augustine of Hippo ** -

newadvent.org/fathers/1504.htm


#10

Speaking of the early Church…

Two councils were held at Orange (Arausio), a town in the present department of Vaucluse in southern France. The first met on 8 November, 441.

Much more important was the second council (held on 3 July, 529), the first in Gaul to publish a decision in matters of faith.

The occasion was the dedication of a church built at Orange by Liberius, the pretorian prefect of Narbonensian Gaul. It was attended by fourteen bishops with St. Cæsarius of Arles as president, and its deliberations bore on the current errors concerning the doctrine of grace and free will (example: Semipelagianism). Cæsarius had informed Felix IV (III) of the pernicious activity of the Semipelagians in Gaul and had applied to him for support. The pope, in response, sent him a series of “Capitula”, i.e. propositions or decrees drawn almost in their entirety from the works of St. Augustine and the “Sententiæ” of St. Prosper of Aquitaine.

The acts of the Synod of Orange contain, after a preamble:

(a) eight canons or anathematisms;
(b) seventeen merely declaratory propositions (both of these classes are known as “Capitula”);
© a sort of demonstration of the defined doctrine against the objections of the Semipelagians.
The subjects of the “Capitula” are thus logically grouped by Portalié in “Dict. Théol. Cath.” (I, 2526).

As to do with Justification:

(1) Causes of the necessity of grace. They are:

(a) original sin which cannot be wiped out without it (can. ii);

(b) the weakness of the will resulting from the fall of man (i);

© the very condition of creature (xix).

(2) Operation of grace before justification. It precedes every effort conducive to salvation. From it proceed:

(a) prayer (can. iii);

(b) the desire of justification (iv);

© the inception of faith (v);

(d) every effort towards faith (vi);

(e) every salutary act (vii);

(f) every preparation to justification (viii, xii);

(g) all merit (xviii).

(3) Operation of grace in initial justification or baptism. It restores (xiii), justifies (xiv), improves (xv), confers the justice of Christ (xxviii).

(4) Work of grace after justification in the just. It is necessary for good actions (ix); perseverance (x); the taking of vows (xi); Christian fortitude (xvii); the life of Christ within us (xxiv); the love of God (xxv).

(5) Universal necessity of grace. This need of grace to do good and avoid evil is expressed in propositions ix, xx, and the variously interpreted proposition xxii.

These “Capitula” became the basis of the twenty-five issued by the Synod of Orange, and these in turn were freely used by the Council of Trent in its condemnation of Luther.


#11

which is why we are and remain in the Church Jesus founded, and not those founded upon the traditions of men:

The Church: Mt 16:18-19; 18:15-18; 5:13-16
Lk 10:16
1Tim 3:14-15; 4:11-16
Rom 16:17-18
1 Cor 1-10
Titus 1:4-16


#12

I haven’t really. I posted a few times there… But the conversation was already 100 posts deep before I got here LOL

By the way, look for the word “alone” in those quotes from the fathers :wink:


#13

I certainly can agree with the Canons of the Second Council of Orange. That is, I haven’t seen anything with which I disagree.

The council of Trent, in many cases, however, contradicted the 529 Council in several places.


#14

If any ECFs were confused on this issue, they should’ve read scripture more closely as they would’ve found that “alone” is used, in reference to faith, only to emphasize that faith is not sufficient in itself to save us. Thank God for the authority of the CC led by the Holy Spirit to clear these kinds of things up, knowing how to understand scripture so that, by the use of it, the truth can be proclaimed correctly.


#15

Blasted early church fathers and their novel doctrinal inventions! :smiley:


#16

Augustine here is addressing the topic of sanctification. Sanctification is an integral and necessary part of salvation. Justification preceeds it… and is necessary for it. Justification is found in Christ. That is, the work of Christ is why we can be justified. Faith is how we receive his work for us. Go back and re-read the quotes of the fathers.


#17

Yes. Works are necessary.
For, In essence, works are…

COOPERATION
with
GOD

Well, see I am Catholic and don’t really say “Justification preceeds it[santification]” Salvation is a past, present, and future event. Of course Luther changed things up a bit, but I have done my own research: Justification is well integrated with Sanctification :thumbsup:

I still remain faithful to the Church, not Luther:shrug:
(and I’m not mentioning Luther only because you’re Lutheran…haha…but because he did change the whole idea of salvation, basically…and look where we are with Baptists, Sola Fide, etc…)


#18

He didn’t change anything…He simply realized the full force of Paul’s Gospel in Romans, Galatians, et al. I agree with salvation being a past, present, and future reality. Indeed, our salvation is both fully ours, but we are not fully saved yet…we will be saved on the Day of Resurrection. I am narrowing it specifically to justification - Justified…righteous and acceptable in God’s sight because of Jesus’ substitution. Sanctification is that by which the Spirit infuses us with grace, through Word and Sacraments, and we become holy progressively throughout our lives until we die and are fully glorified and sinless.

But the basis of all of it, is Christ crucified for sinners.


#19

Are you saying when you feel the church fathers are contradicting Scripture…we should go by Scripture as our final authority? :thumbsup:


#20

These guys were Lutheran?


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