The Church is not the Truth


#1

Hey All,
This thread is a spin off of my other thread entitled Pillar and Foundation of Truth 1Tim3:15. I have been discussing the Authority topic with this Pastor, although he admitted that the Church is the Pillar and “Support” of Truth, he decided to do a sermon on this topic and he taped it and gave me a copy. I will hit the highlights of the sermon.

1)The Church is a Pillar and “Support” or Buttress of Truth,all it does is uphold the truth
2)It is the Bible or the Church. The Bible is the truth and the Church is not,it just supports the truth.(his pillar analogy)
3)The Church can be wrong see Acts20:22-31 and Gal.1:6-10
4)How can anyone draw the conclusion that the Church is the truth.


#2

The Church came before the Bible. But I kind of agree with his use of the Church to buttress the truth. The Church cannot be, in itself “the truth” IMO but it is the body that the Holy Spirit guides and protects in order the truth- which is the fides quai or deposit of faith; the fullness of Revelation God made through His beloved Son, the incarnate WORD of GOD- remains in its fullness and integrity!

If this WORD is to exist for all time without imperfection, God must have provided away of protecting it from apostasy, as the Bible promises. The Church is the way the deposit of faith is protected from corruption, and though the Church may make mistakes in itself and the people in it are just people, the deposit of faith cannot be corrupted and has not been


#3

Oh is that it?:rolleyes:

2)It is the Bible or the Church.

Says who?

The Bible is the truth and the Church is not,it just supports the truth.(his pillar analogy)

Wrong, Jesus is the, “Way, the **Truth **and the Life.” (John 14:6) not the Bible and it is the Church that the Holy Scriptures tells us which upholds that Truth.

4)How can anyone draw the conclusion that the Church is the truth.

I don’t see anyone making the claim.

God bless


#4

The Church may not be the Truth (as a pp said, that would be Jesus). But then, neither is the Bible the Truth…again that is Jesus.

Unless you claim that the Bible is Jesus?

The Church canonized and finalized the Bible. The Church upholds and supports the Bible.

And only the Church may infallibly interpret the Bible.

Mik


#5

Truth - Complete and intact is embodied in the Word who is Jesus the Christ.
God’s Truth is so vast, and so complete it cannot be contained within the confines of man’s language, either written or spoken. Not even the Bible can do this since it is limited to the use of human language.
God’s Truth is written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

God sent Jesus to show us the way to The Father.
Jesus instituted the Church through the apostles to spread the Good News of the Kingdom and to Guard against corruption of this Good News.

The Church assembled together a canon of books, called the Bible, to assure that the basic lineage and teachings would be codified and protected.

Therefore, while the Church is the Guardian of Truth, and is the closest deepest and most complete repository of teaching, Truth continues to reside with God as revealed by the Holy Spirit to our hearts.

Peace
James


#6

Let me take a gander at this.

1)The Church is a Pillar and “Support” or Buttress of Truth,all it does is uphold the truth

The Church is the Pillar and Bulwark of Truth. It does upheld the Church.

2)It is the Bible or the Church. The Bible is the truth and the Church is not,it just supports the truth.(his pillar analogy).

No. Not true. According of 2 Tim 3:16, Scripture is "is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness "

The Church on the other hand, is the pillar and bulwark of truth just as 1 Tim 3:15 says. “I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.”

I do agree the Church supports the Truth, but you cannot say the truth is not in the Catholic Church.

3)The Church can be wrong see Acts 20:22-31 and Gal.1:6-10

I read Acts 20:22-31 does even say the Catholic can err.

Let me show you.

Acts 20:22-31

And now, behold, I am going to Jerusalem, bound in the Spirit, not knowing what shall befall me there; 23 except that the Holy Spirit testifies to me in every city that imprisonment and afflictions await me. 24 But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may accomplish my course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. 25 And now, behold, I know that all you among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom will see my face no more. 26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all of you, 27 for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son. 29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore be alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish every one with tears.

It doesn’t say the Church can error neither does Gal. 1:6-10. It does say people can preach other gospel, and Paul warns that there are false prophets and teachers. These are not members of the Church. Here is what Gal. 1:6-10.

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel 7 not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed. 10 Am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still pleasing men, I should not be a servant of Christ

4)How can anyone draw the conclusion that the Church is the truth.

Yes, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Church is protected. Jesus gave his Church authority to bind and loose. If there is a disagreement amongst us we take it up to the Church. Jesus ever taught that the Church can error in moral and faith. That doctrine is false.

This is nothing more than another Protestant lie, we see so often in here. See how Protestant distort the truth and twist Scripture. Shame on them.


#7

Christ (head of the Church) is not seperate from His Body(the church) and therefore the Church is the Truth because christ is the Truth.


#8

Your Pastor friend is reading words into these two passages. No where does it say the Church can be wrong. What it is saying is to be on the lookout for people teaching a false gospel other than what the Apostles teach. Sounds like these passages refer to your Pastor friend!


#9

Well…if the Church represents the “pillars” and the Bible the “roof” then without the pillars the roof is…well…not a roof:shrug:
The pillars serve to support the roof and give it it’s true function. If you choose one OR the other, then you get an incomplete house!:eek:


#10

“We are all entitled to our own religious beliefs. But there is nothing wrong nor shameful in correcting our religious belief when it is found to be wrong. It is never too late to change our religion when it is proved to be false.”


#11

Post #10: I suggest you read Rod Bennett’s book “Four Witnesses” about the early Church.

The early church was the Catholic Church and any other versions in those early years have passed away, although it may have taken centuries for them to pass away.

The issue of interpretation was cited even back then, and before the Bible was finalized, it was the Church, appealing to its apostolic origins that gave people the assurance of truth and continuity. People may dismiss apostlicity but it was critical then and it is actually still very important, it’s crucial.

One of the early protestant reformers John Wycliffe spread the idea that every believer should have the right to interpret the Bible as he saw fit – oh yeah, except Catholics. No, THEIR interpretation was the only one that wasn’t right, but, to him, any other interpretation was valid. That is easily seen to be ridiculous without more than a moment’s thought – there is nothing that is interpreted so loosely. If that were true, then there’s really nothing to talk about, like in these forums, because everything would be correct.


#12

Love for the truth has been a favorite theme of Pope John Paul II. “Let us seek the truth about Christ and about his Church!..Let us love the Truth, proclaim the Truth! O Christ, show us the Truth! Be the only Truth for us!” – Agenda for the Third Millennium Pope John Paul II

The Holy Father’s enthusiasm for the truth however is not shared by the secular world. In fact, its citizens, in general, harbor a distinct fear of the truth. This fear may be analyzed on three different levels:

  1. that the truth would impose unwanted moral responsibilities on them;
  2. that any association with the truth would occasion an air of pretentiousness;
  3. that any claim to the truth might expose them to being wrong.

They prefer freedom from moral responsibility, absence of any “holier than thou” attitude and exemption from the possible embarrassment of being in error. Their fears, however, take them from the very light and meaning they long for, and plunge them into a dark void were they are trapped by a misery of their own making. Their flight from the truth is also an entrance into a world of gloom.

These three fears are ill fated, as well as ill founded. First of all, truth is our only avenue to real freedom. “You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.” John 8:32

Ignorance may at times be blissful, but it is never illuminating. St. Augustine once remarked that he had met many people who had been deceived, but never met anyone who wanted to be deceived.

We have a natural hunger for the truth of things. No one ever asks for the wrong time. It is always the “right” time and the truth about things we want to learn.

Untruth is not helpful, but truth is like a beacon that shows us the way. This is why the Pope titled his great encyclical on the freeing function of truth as Veritas Splendor (Truth’s Splendor).

When we are lost we want to lean the truth about our situation so that we can be liberated from our confusion. The truth makes us free; untruth binds us to bewilderment.
The truth about ourselves awakens us to our moral responsibilities, but we need this awakening in order to become whom we truly are, to advance toward our destiny, to build a meaningful life.

We should welcome the truth that illuminates our moral responsibilities with the same enthusiasm that a person who is lost in the woods and welcomes a compass and a map.

Secondly, the fear that any discovery of truth would make us pretentious is also counterproductive. Truth is not of our own making. Even Christ proclaimed that the truth He illuminated did not spring from Him alone. “My teaching is not mine, but His who sent me” (John 17:6)

Truth is not subjective. It represents the objective order of things. The person who comes to know something of the truth, then should experience humility, not vanity, for he discovers something that is not his.

Christ was emphatic in his denunciation of the Pharisees who claimed to know something of the truth but behaved with a pretentious snobbery. Truth is not he cause of Pharisaism, vanity is.

And both Christ and his Church are unrelenting in their advocacy of humility and in their condemnation of vanity. In fact, it may be far less tolerant of Pharisaism than the secular world. Consider, for example, the comment, “I hate anything fake,” made by Britney Spears, a veritable icon of artificiality and pretense. The secular world awards this kind of duplicity with celebrity.

Thirdly, there is the rather spineless fear that in perusing the truth, we might fall into the embarrassing predicament of being wrong. Again, there is nothing wrong that can reasonably justify this anxiety. We all make mistakes. Not to try something for fear of making a mistake is akin to a paralyzing neurosis that would discourage one from trying anything.

Some people avoid marriage because they fear divorce. Others avoid friendship because they fear rejection. The pursuit of truth presupposes a certain amount of courage. If nothing is ventured, as the maxim goes, nothing is gained.

The fact that truth is indispensable for a meaningful life does not mean that it is always agreeable. Mounting the bathroom scale can be a breathless ascent, because the anxious weight-watcher knows that this simple piece of machinery tells the truth.

But he disconcerting truth that one is overweight may be exactly what one needs if exercising and dieting are to follow. The freedom that health offers may need to be preceded by the disagreeable truth that one is too fat.

Truth is as natural to our minds as oxygen is to our lungs and food is to our digestive system. It is a great mistake to regard the teaching of truth as an imposition. The Church does not, nor can she, impose truth.

Rather, she endeavors to propose truths to those who are disposed to receive them. The Vatican’s Declaration of Religious Liberty states that, “The truth cannot impose itself except by virtue of its own truth, as it wins over the mind with gentleness and power.

The Church as Guardian of the Truth and Teacher of the Word provides food for hungry minds. She does not impose the truth; no more than do Christians impose food on hungry bodies when they practice this corporeal act of mercy.

She guards it because it needs to be protected against the contamination of error. She teaches it because it is more nourishing than error. Moreover, the truth enables her to teach realistically about the truth of Christ, the truth of the Catholic Church, and the truth of man. Apostles are ministers of love, but they are also servants of the truth.

By Dr. Donald DeMarco, Professor of Philosophy, St. Jerome’s College at U. of Waterloo, he is married with 5 children.

Taken from The Bread of Life Magazine, July / Aug. Volume 26 Number 3


#13

This is REALLY simple.

If Christ is THE TRUTH, and He is, then he cannot be seperate from His head or His body, the church, and therefore the Church herself is Truth. You cannot take the head of Christ from the Body of Christ.

“he who hears you(church), hears me.” -Jesus


#14

:thumbsup:


#15

Another angle I was looking at is,he likes to say it’s just a support of the truth but some bibles say its the foundation of truth. Anything built on a faulty foundation will fall.The foundation is the most important part of the building


#16

Amen…and as the song goes:
“The Church’s one foundation is Jesus Christ Her Lord”

He is our Foundation, and the Church is the Foundation of Truth.

If the Bible is Truth, is it not necessary to have a foundation that encompasses and supports it to be One?


#17

The Bible is not the foundation of the truth. The Church is. The Bible itself is the truth because it is the written Word of God.


#18

If Christ is the CHIEF CORNERSTONE of the FOUNDATION of His Church, along with His apostles, and Christ IS the TRUTH, then the Church(body of Christ) is the Truth.

The cornerstone of any building is on the same level as the building foundation.

Jesus mad ethe apostles the foundation with Himself as the chief cornerstone of that foundation.

I am not saying Jesus is making Himself equal to His apostles, just that He gave them His mission and His speaking authority on this earth.


#19

Great Replies :thumbsup:


#20

:smiley: hi all the church being the pillar of truth holds the truth up so what happens if one was to knock out this pillar? the truth will come down with a big splat on those who pushed the pillar down.clean up on aisle 6 please


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