The Church


#1

I was thinking that the church is the body of all believer and the CC was the first church.

In reading 1Tim 3:15 ( But if I should be delayed, you should know how to
behave in the household of God, which is the church of the
living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.)

What church is this verse talking about,and how do you prove it either way.
Maybe some one can help me.


#2

The One church established by Jesus Christ was the Catholic Church. Catholic means Universal. Here is a good article that shows that from a very early age, Christians called their Church “Catholic”. This article shows that we have had a succession of Popes originating from Peter. There was no other Church that believed in Jesus Christ for a long time, and no non-Catholic Christian Church can trace their lineage back to the Apostles, so how could they claim to be the One Church that Jesus Christ established?


#3

[quote=Will Pick]I was thinking that the church is the body of all believer and the CC was the first church.

In reading 1Tim 3:15 ( But if I should be delayed, you should know how to
behave in the household of God, which is the church of the
living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.)

What church is this verse talking about,and how do you prove it either way.
Maybe some one can help me.
[/quote]

Look at this verse carefully…I’m not saying that you have to believe it the way I am about to explain it but keep an open mind.

I hear often that the Catholic Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Clearly, this verse does not speak in that sense as it talks about the household of God.

What does it mean to be in the household of God? Well, we know that a household consists of family and servants. So, how do we enter into God’s family.

Christ says, “whoever does the will of my Father will be my brothers, sisters, mother, etc.” (Matthew 12 I believe). If we are in relation to Christ we are also in relation to the Father.

Now what is God’s will? Glorification of Him and redemption of His creation. He gives us a few commandments to follow; love the Lord your God with all mind, heart and soul, Love your neighbor as yourself, go to make disciples of all nations, believe in Christ (whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life).

This looks to me like the minute we accept Christ (as that was what God wanted) we become family again. With that we are put into His Church.

By no means am I denoucning the need for an organized structure. I think this is also essential as it was apparent in the early Church but in this context, I believe we are talking about any man, woman or child that believes in Jesus Christ…


#4

Acts 15:22-27
" 22 Then the apostles and presbyters, in agreement with the whole church, decided to choose representatives and to send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. The ones chosen were Judas, who was called Barsabbas, and Silas, leaders among the brothers.
23 This is the letter delivered by them: “The apostles and the presbyters, your brothers, to the brothers in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia of Gentile origin: greetings.
24 Since we have heard that some of our number (who went out) without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind,
25 we have with one accord decided to choose representatives and to send them to you along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 who have dedicated their lives to the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 So we are sending Judas and Silas who will also convey this same message by word of mouth:”

I see this verse as showing that people hold no authority for teaching without being in union with the Church.


#5

[quote=jpete79]Look at this verse carefully…I’m not saying that you have to believe it the way I am about to explain it but keep an open mind.

I hear often that the Catholic Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Clearly, this verse does not speak in that sense as it talks about the household of God.

What does it mean to be in the household of God? Well, we know that a household consists of family and servants. So, how do we enter into God’s family.

Christ says, “whoever does the will of my Father will be my brothers, sisters, mother, etc.” (Matthew 12 I believe). If we are in relation to Christ we are also in relation to the Father.

Now what is God’s will? Glorification of Him and redemption of His creation. He gives us a few commandments to follow; love the Lord your God with all mind, heart and soul, Love your neighbor as yourself, go to make disciples of all nations, believe in Christ (whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life).

This looks to me like the minute we accept Christ (as that was what God wanted) we become family again. With that we are put into His Church.

By no means am I denoucning the need for an organized structure. I think this is also essential as it was apparent in the early Church but in this context, I believe we are talking about any man, woman or child that believes in Jesus Christ…
[/quote]

And you, as a Protestant, are entitled to your belief. But, you cannot gloss over the part of the verse that definitely states: "…“the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth…” as if it wasn’t there. Nor does your definition of the household of God contradict the idea that the church being spoken of here is the one established by Christ as “one, holy, catholic, and apostolic” (Nicene Creed 4th century), iow, a visible body of believers recognizable by these attributes, just because that’s how you like to interpret it.


#6

If Jesus wasn’t talking about the physical Church, He would not have mentioned a way to behave in the household of God. He would have said should I be delayed, you know how to behave according to what is pleasing to My Father, or something similar…

He specifically mentions “in” (meaning inside) and the Household of God, which would mean that there are certain ways to do things inside certain places.


#7

[quote=Loboto-Me]If Jesus wasn’t talking about the physical Church, He would not have mentioned a way to behave in the household of God. He would have said should I be delayed, you know how to behave according to what is pleasing to My Father, or something similar…

He specifically mentions “in” (meaning inside) and the Household of God, which would mean that there are certain ways to do things inside certain places.
[/quote]

It wasn’t Jesus who said this but Paul. Unless you are talking about another verse.


#8

[quote=Della]And you, as a Protestant, are entitled to your belief. But, you cannot gloss over the part of the verse that definitely states: "…“the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth…” as if it wasn’t there. Nor does your definition of the household of God contradict the idea that the church being spoken of here is the one established by Christ as “one, holy, catholic, and apostolic” (Nicene Creed 4th century), iow, a visible body of believers recognizable by these attributes, just because that’s how you like to interpret it.
[/quote]

Please show how “church” is defined from the Greek.
Please show how church was looked on by 1st century believers.
Please show how church is defined using all of scripture.


#9

You’re right! My bad… I was putting words in Jesus’ mouth.

Even so, the same could be said of Paul’s word… actually come to think of it, it proves my point moreso since the Church would have been established as an institution by then, although in it’s infancy.


#10

[quote=SolaChristo]Please show how church is defined using all of scripture.
[/quote]

V. The Church is Visible and One
Matt. 5:14 - Jesus says a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, and this is in reference to the Church. The Church is not an invisible, ethereal, atmospheric presence, but a single, visible and universal body through the Eucharist. The Church is an extension of the Incarnation.

Matt. 12:25; Mark 3:25; Luke 11:17 - Jesus says a kingdom divided against itself is laid waste and will not stand. This describes Protestantism and the many thousands of denominations that continue to multiply each year.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, “I will build my ‘Church’ (not churches).” There is only one Church built upon one Rock with one teaching authority, not many different denominations, built upon various pastoral opinions and suggestions.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - Jesus gave the apostles binding and loosing authority. But this authority requires a visible Church because “binding and loosing” are visible acts. The Church cannot be invisible, or it cannot bind and loose.

John 10:16 - Jesus says there must only be one flock and one shepherd. This cannot mean many denominations and many pastors, all teaching different doctrines. Those outside the fold must be brought into the Church.

John 17:11,21,23 - Jesus prays that His followers may be perfectly one as He is one with the Father. Jesus’ oneness with the Father is perfect. It can never be less. Thus, the oneness Jesus prays for cannot mean the varied divisions of Christianity that have resulted since the Protestant reformation. There is perfect oneness only in the Catholic Church.

John 17:9-26 - Jesus’ prayer, of course, is perfectly effective, as evidenced by the miraculous unity of the Catholic Church during her 2,000 year history.

John 17:21 - Jesus states that the visible unity of the Church would be a sign that He was sent by God. This is an extremely important verse. Jesus tells us that the unity of the Church is what bears witness to Him and the reality of who He is and what He came to do for us. There is only one Church that is universally united, and that is the Catholic Church. Only the unity of the Catholic Church truly bears witness to the reality that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father.

Rom. 15:5 - Paul says that we as Christians must live in harmony with one another. But this can only happen if there is one Church with one body of faith. This can only happen by the charity of the Holy Spirit who dwells within the Church.

Rom. 16:17 - Paul warns us to avoid those who create dissensions and difficulties. This includes those who break away from the Church and create one denomination after another. We need to avoid their teaching, and bring them back into the one fold of Christ.

1 Cor. 1:10- Paul prays for no dissensions and disagreements among Christians, being of the same mind and the same judgment. How can Protestant pastors say that they are all of the same mind and the same judgment on matters of faith and morals?

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - again, the Church does not mean “invisible” unity, because Paul called it the body (not the soul) of Christ. Bodies are visible, and souls are invisible.

Eph. 4:11-14 - God gives members of the Church various gifts in order to attain to the unity of the faith. This unity is only found in the Catholic Church.

Eph. 4:3-5 - we are of one body, one Spirit, one faith and one baptism. This requires doctrinal unity, not 30,000 different denominations.

Eph. 5:25 - the Church is the Bride of Christ. Jesus has only one Bride, not many.

Eph. 5:30; Rom. 12:4-5; 1 Cor. 6:15 - we, as Christians, are one visible body in Christ, not many bodies, many denominations.

Phil. 1:27 - Paul commands that we stand firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the Gospel.

Phil. 2:2 - Paul prays that Christians be of the same mind, of one accord. Yet there are 30,000 different "Protest"ant denominations?

Col. 1:18 - Christ is the Head of the one body, the Church. He is not the Head of many bodies or many sects.

1 Tim. 6:4 - Paul warns about those who seek controversy and disputes about words. There must be a universal authority to appeal to who can trace its authority back to Christ.

Continued…


#11

continued…

2 Tim. 2:14 - do not dispute about words which only ruin the hearers. Two-thousand years of doctrinal unity is a sign of Christ’s Church.

2 Tim. 4:3 - this is a warning on following our own desires and not the teachings of God. It is not a cafeteria where we pick and choose. We must humble ourselves and accept all of Christ’s teachings which He gives us through His Church.

Rev. 7:9 - the heavenly kingdom is filled with those from every nation and from all tribes, peoples and tongues. This is “catholic,” which means universal.

1 Peter 3:8 - Peter charges us to have unity of spirit. This is impossible unless there is a central teaching authority given to us by God.

Gen. 12:2-3 - since Abram God said all the families of the earth shall be blessed. This family unity is fulfilled only in the Catholic Church.

Dan. 7:14 - Daniel prophesies that all peoples, nations and languages shall serve His kingdom. Again, this catholicity is only found in the Catholic Church.

1 Cor. 14:33 - God cannot be the author of the Protestant confusion. Only the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church claims and proves to be Christ’s Church.

From Scripture Catholic

Where was the visible Church for 1500 years if it was not the Catholic Church?

God Bless,
Maria


#12

Which particular point from Scripture are you wishing to discuss?

Peter is the Rock on which the Church is Built

Peter has the Keys of Authority over the Earthly Kingdom, the Church

Peter’s keys and Papal Succession

The Church is Infallible and Supernatural

The Church is Visible and One

The Church is Hierarchical

Controversies in the Church

Which Scripture are you wishing to discuss about the Church?


#13

[quote=SolaChristo]Please show how “church” is defined from the Greek.

So we can go around and around about definitions? No thanks.

Please show how church was looked on by 1st century believers.

Just read the Early Church Fathers and you will see how.

Please show how church is defined using all of scripture.

Try looking up “church” in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. There you will find what you are looking for as defined by Christ’s one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. :wink:
[/quote]


#14

[quote=MariaG]V.
Matt. 5:14 - Jesus says a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, and this is in reference to the Church. The Church is not an invisible, ethereal, atmospheric presence, but a single, visible and universal body through the Eucharist. The Church is an extension of the Incarnation.

As believers we are salt and light to the world, a city on the hill

Matt. 12:25; Mark 3:25; Luke 11:17 - Jesus says a kingdom divided against itself is laid waste and will not stand. This describes Protestantism and the many thousands of denominations that continue to multiply each year.

We are one in Christ. You place all the blame for division with protestants --there would have been no reformation necessary had not there been abuse, apostacy and corruption in the church.

The kingdom of Christ is not divided against itself. you have a choice be part with your brethern or be seperated.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, “I will build my ‘Church’ (not churches).” There is only one Church built upon one Rock with one teaching authority, not many different denominations, built upon various pastoral opinions and suggestions.\

The Greek word for churh means congregation or assemply. jesus built his church on the congregatiopn and the assembly of all believers.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - Jesus gave the apostles binding and loosing authority. But this authority requires a visible Church because “binding and loosing” are visible acts. The Church cannot be invisible, or it cannot bind and loose.

The Church of Christ still binds and still looses. The keys are with all believers for they were given to all the disciples.

John 10:16 - Jesus says there must only be one flock and one shepherd. This cannot mean many denominations and many pastors, all teaching different doctrines. Those outside the fold must be brought into the Church.

Jesus is the head the cornerstone and the foundation of his church

John 17:11,21,23 - Jesus prays that His followers may be perfectly one as He is one with the Father. Jesus’ oneness with the Father is perfect. It can never be less. Thus, the oneness Jesus prays for cannot mean the varied divisions of Christianity that have resulted since the Protestant reformation. There is perfect oneness only in the Catholic Church.

Believers are in unity in Christ. We are didvided when you chose to fall back into your denomination.

John 17:9-26 - Jesus’ prayer, of course, is perfectly effective, as evidenced by the miraculous unity of the Catholic Church during her 2,000 year history.

The Church at rome as not been united for 2000 years

John 17:21 - Jesus states that the visible unity of the Church would be a sign that He was sent by God. This is an extremely important verse. Jesus tells us that the unity of the Church is what bears witness to Him and the reality of who He is and what He came to do for us. There is only one Church that is universally united, and that is the Catholic Church. Only the unity of the Catholic Church truly bears witness to the reality that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father.

I am in unity with Christs Church are you with me or are you against me?

Rom. 15:5 - Paul says that we as Christians must live in harmony with one another. But this can only happen if there is one Church with one body of faith. This can only happen by the charity of the Holy Spirit who dwells within the Church.

Why do you want to cause division.

Rom. 16:17 - Paul warns us to avoid those who create dissensions and difficulties. This includes those who break away from the Church and create one denomination after another. We need to avoid their teaching, and bring them back into the one fold of Christ.

The Church at Rome was abusive, was apostate and was corrupt in the Middle Ages –

1 Cor. 1:10- Paul prays for no dissensions and disagreements among Christians, being of the same mind and the same judgment. How can Protestant pastors say that they are all of the same mind and the same judgment on matters of faith and morals?

Believers are one in Christ.

Eph. 4:11-14 - God gives members of the Church various gifts in order to attain to the unity of the faith. This unity is only found in the Catholic Church.

Because you say, not. Those who are in Christ in unity of the Spirited are one.

Eph. 4:3-5 - we are of one body, one Spirit, one faith and one baptism. This requires doctrinal unity, not 30,000 different denominations.

We can be all of these and still have disagreements

Col. 1:18 - Christ is the Head of the one body, the Church. He is not the Head of many bodies or many sects.

I agree

Continued…
[/quote]


#15

So we can just make up our own definitions as to what church means?

Catholic means universal it does not mean the church which is at Rome.


#16

[quote=MariaG]Which particular point from Scripture are you wishing to discuss?

Peter is the Rock on which the Church is Built

Jesus is the rock and the foundation which Gopd built his Church.

Peter has the Keys of Authority over the Earthly Kingdom, the Church

The present day church has the keys of Authority.

Peter’s keys and Papal Succession

Find the word pope once in scripture.

The Church is Infallible and Supernatural

If this the church at Rome was infallible then they would never have been apostate.

The Church is Visible and One

The Church is Hierarchical

Controversies in the Church

Which Scripture are you wishing to discuss about the Church?
[/quote]


#17

[quote=jpete79]Look at this verse carefully…I’m not saying that you have to believe it the way I am about to explain it but keep an open mind.

I hear often that the Catholic Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Clearly, this verse does not speak in that sense as it talks about the household of God.

What does it mean to be in the household of God? Well, we know that a household consists of family and servants. So, how do we enter into God’s family.

Christ says, “whoever does the will of my Father will be my brothers, sisters, mother, etc.” (Matthew 12 I believe). If we are in relation to Christ we are also in relation to the Father.

Now what is God’s will? Glorification of Him and redemption of His creation. He gives us a few commandments to follow; love the Lord your God with all mind, heart and soul, Love your neighbor as yourself, go to make disciples of all nations, believe in Christ (whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life).

This looks to me like the minute we accept Christ (as that was what God wanted) we become family again. With that we are put into His Church.

By no means am I denoucning the need for an organized structure. I think this is also essential as it was apparent in the early Church but in this context, I believe we are talking about any man, woman or child that believes in Jesus Christ…
[/quote]

But how can this “family” be the pillar and foundation of a bunch of different truths? When Jesus said truth he meant ONE truth, not a bunch of different interpretations all led by the Holy Spirit as part of God’s family etc. etc. If the family you’re talking about were the household of God Jesus was speaking of, they would support a very specific, concrete truth. Only ONE church does that, only one Church claims to actually infallibly know the truth and support it indefinitely, and that’s the Catholic Church.


#18

[quote=Loboto-Me]You’re right! My bad… I was putting words in Jesus’ mouth.

Even so, the same could be said of Paul’s word… actually come to think of it, it proves my point moreso since the Church would have been established as an institution by then, although in it’s infancy.
[/quote]

I made the same mistake here, but the logic still applies :).


#19

Strong’s Number: 1577 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
ejkklhsiva from a compound of (1537) and a derivative of (2564)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Ekklesia 3:501,394
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ek-klay-see’-ah Noun Feminine
Definition

  1. a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
    1. an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
    2. the assembly of the Israelites
    3. any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
    4. in a Christian sense
      1. an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
      2. a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order’s sake
      3. those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
      4. the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
      5. the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven

#20

An important question for the non-Catholics here: what role did the apostles have? Surely you will not deny that they had a special authority among the Church. Once we all agree that the apostles had a special authority there will remain only two further issues, 1) what did the special authority entail, and 2) was the authority passed on.

I think these are the questions that must be addressed for this thread to be useful.


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