The Collective Messiah


We all know that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. So, no argument about it. But then whom did Isaiah have in mind when he wrote chapter 53? In fact, who was in his mind when he wrote the whole book? That’s in Isaiah 1:1: “A vision about Judah and Jerusalem.” That’s the theme of the book of Isaiah: Judah. Or the House of Jacob called by the name Israel from the stock of Judah. (Isa. 48:1)

Now, how about the Suffering Servant? Isaiah mentions him by name, which is Israel according to Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4

Now, we have extablished a syllogism. If the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, and Isaiah identifies that Servant with Israel by name, the resultant premise will obviously be that Israel (the Jewish People) is the Messiah. Rashi thought so too, and a few other thinkers of weight.

Now, if the Messiah must also bring the epitet of son of God, there is no problem. We can have it from Exodus 4:22,23. Here’s what it says in there: “Israel is My son; so, let My son go, that he may serve Me,” says the Lord. That’s why Hosea said that
"When Israel was a child, God said, out of Egypt I called My son." (Hosea 11:1)

Last but not least, Jesus no doubt was part of the Messiah but not on an individual basis. The Messiah is collective. What we need from time to time, especially in exile, is of a Messianic leader to lead or inspire the Messiah to return home. Moses
was one for bringing the Messiah back to Canaan. Cyrus was another for proclaiming the return of the Messiah to rebuild the Temple; and in our modern times, we had Herzl who was also one for inspiring the Messiah with love for Zion.

Now, I would appreciate to share your comments about the above.

Ben: :confused:

Isn’t the Messiah supposed to represent Israel anyway?

i am not sure exactly what you are trying to say here.

i dont know exactly what you believe. for once. you know that as Catholics we believe that Jesus is the Christ, a person who came as the Son of God. He died on the Cross. He returned from the dead and ascended into Heaven. yes He came to free Israel, not as Israel wanted but as God wanted.

Jesus preached all over but many did not listen. some did listen. Jesus chose 12 Apostles jews to go on with His teachings and today we have what is the Church.

i know you probably do not believe what we believe. am i right?

:byzsoc: :highprayer:

And who better than the People of Israel to represent Israel?

Ben: :wink:

but the Messiah represents Israel, right?

Right! The Messiah represents itself. Since Israel is the Messiah, Israel represents the Messiah, and the Messiah represents Israel.

Ben :smiley: :

you do not believe the messiah is one person?

One person is an individual; collective is the People. No, according to my thread above, I don’t believe the Messiah is one person but Israel, the Jewish People, just as
Isaiah says.

Ben: :slight_smile:

But there was one sin offering.
53:6 In the same way Israel’s priests laid their hands on the head (not heads) of a scapegoat, symbolically transforming the people’s sins to **it **( see Lev. 16:20-22 ) so our burden of sin was laid upon Christ.

53;8 Jesus died without descendants.

53:10 “Offspring” refers to Christ’s spiritual progeny and “prolong his days” to his eternal life

going back to Isaiah 52
52;14 Those who would generations later witness Jesus’ suffering and death on the cross - not those who saw Jesus in some earlier context — would be “appalled” by his appearance , for he would at that point be “disfigured” a term used of a “blemished animal,” one unfit for offering to the Lord (Mal 1:14) this prophecy makes clear that Christ’s treatment at the time of his passion and crucifixion would be absolutely inhumane.

Cyrus was acting as “The Lord’s arm” 53:1

Didn’t you just say that the priests laid their hands on the head of a scapegoat? How come it turned out to be upon Christ? Who assumes that it was Christ, you?

53;8 Jesus died without descendants.

Not really. Take a look at my thread on “The Wedding of Jesus” in the non-Catholic section of this forum. You will be surprised to see that he did have descendants.

53:10 “Offspring” refers to Christ’s spiritual progeny and “prolong his days” to his eternal life

The offspring of Israel is Judah. To understand this, you must have some initiation on the concept of Messiah ben Joseph versus Messiah ben David.

52;14 Those who would generations later witness Jesus’ suffering and death on the cross - not those who saw Jesus in some earlier context — would be “appalled” by his appearance , for he would at that point be “disfigured” a term used of a “blemished animal,” one unfit for offering to the Lord (Mal 1:14) this prophecy makes clear that Christ’s treatment at the time of his passion and crucifixion would be absolutely inhumane.

You speak as if Jesus was the only Jew to be crucified by the Romans. Read Josephus. The Romans crucified thousands of Jews exactly in the same manner as they did Jesus.
Do you think they were inhumane with Jesus and treated the others VIP? Jesus even had a trial. How about the one million and a half of Jewish children the Nazis threw alive into the ovens of the
concentration camps? Jesus was lucky not to have suffered as much. This attitude of yours is unfair to them, as if their pain, or blood didn’t mean a thing.

Ben: :confused:

So you are a Messianic Jew? Not Orthodox?

[quote]QUOTE=Ben Masada;4810709]

Ben: Now, that’s not Judaism. Considering that Jesus was Jewish and not Greek, what you have said above belongs with Greek Mythology.

Ben: We are not sure about that. Even Luke in Acts 1:3 says that when Jesus appeared to the disciples, showing in many convincing ways that he was alive, it was after his sufferings and not after his death. To appear after one’s sufferings is no proof that he had died.

Ben: To return form the dead is a contradiction to the Scriptures which are very clear that we once dead will never return. Read Job 7:9,10; 10:21; 14:12; II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 88:6; 146:4; Ezekiel 26:20.

Ben: Do you happen to know how God wanted?
If you do, let me know.

Ben: Sorry Wisdomseeker, but the Church didn’t come out of the 12 Apostles. The Church came out of Paul. Read Acts 11:26. What came out of the Apostles was the Sect of the
Nazarenes, not the Church.

Ben: Yes, you are right. I do not believe as you do. But my views are not hewened in plates of stone. I have a mind which evolves. If what you have to say makes sense to me,
I am ready to change my views.

Ben: :thumbsup:
[/quote]

i have a feeling this is going nowhere.

you believe in Isaiah and not St Paul. I believe both. and there is no contradiction among them.

many saw Jesus after His death. it is all written. but if you dont believe in the NT what is the point in discussion this at all?

not necessary true. since the Pharisees did believe life after death. am i wrong? but i think that the Saducees were the ones not believing in life after death. correct if i am wrong.

how God wanted? it is written that God’s way is not our way.
the NT shows that Herod was very jelous about the Messiah. he was afraid that Messiah had come and probably would take his kingdom away. as we know Jesus is the King but not like Israel wanted. a deliver from the Romans. Jesus had bigger plans for Israel but the Sanhedrin would not listen.

if you deny the apostles, then you probably wont believe nothing else after that.

you say, if it makes sense to me. i dont know what does this mean. it is all written plus we also have the OT passed on to the Church. if you really want to see you must know the Churhc.

:highprayer: :byzsoc:

how many did not die?

Dear Ben, please forgive if I offended you and your beliefs. It was not my intention to make you feel defensive. Evil is never fair and your pain and the victims of the holocaust are as real and unfair as all that was done in that time and today. I give you the fact I don’t know much about Judaism.

Ben-

Let us consider an outline of the events surrounding this “messiah” in John 10:
[LIST]
*]Jesus claims to be one with the Father (John 10:30)
*]The Jews understand that Jesus is claiming to be God. (John 10:31-33)
*]Jesus rephrases his claim with the term “God’s son” and shows that this means “God” by reference to Psalm 82:6.
*]Jesus answers the charge against him, that he is “making himself God”, by showing that it is not he but the Father that does this.
*]Christ does not claim to be misunderstood, rather he says that the Jews do not believe him (John 10:38).[/LIST]Did anyone other than this “individual”, Jesus, claim to be one with the Father? Or was this a unique claim that suggests that Jesus was not part of the “collective messiah”?

Why did other members of the “collective messiah” reject the claims of this one individual, Jesus?

First of all, Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah or God. This idea started with Paul in Antioch, where his followers started being called Christians. This was about 30 years after Jesus had been gone. Read Acts 11:26. Before that time and place there were never people who were called Christians.

If Christ in Greek means Anointed or Messiah, it’s only obvious that no one before Paul had ever heard that Jesus was the Messiah. Refute that first before you claim that Jesus was the Messiah.

You must be talking about the Christ of Paul and not the real Jesus of Nazareth, who was the one part of the collective Messiah. This Christ of Paul yes, was conceived in his Hellenistic mind of a Greek Diaspora Jew, who decided to quit Judaism in order to give rise to Christianity.

Ben: :rolleyes:

That’s all right Through Him, I understand that from time to time these things happen. I have apologized a few times too myself.

Be blessed too.

Ben: :slight_smile:

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