The commandments

I stumbled upon this site today and it greatly alarmed and frightened me. Not that I haven’t heard arguments like this before (I spent time in evangelical Christianity after hearing the gospel preached in a manner I did NOT while in the Roman Catholic church – in school, during the 50s and early 60s), but this particular page really worries me. It states that the commandments have been changed by the Roman Catholic church and that we are committing idolatry by creating images of saints, Jesus, etc.; the thing that alarms me is that there does seem proof by comparison with original commandments that the RC church HAS changed the wording.
URL: the-ten-commandments.org/catholic_church_idolatry.html#

If we pray to saints, especially referencing “graven images” before us, aret we idolators? If we pray to saints, aren’t they dead? Does there having been beatified somehow justify going against the commandment not to consult the “dead” for any purpose? AND…while on this topic…since these saints ARE no longer living, and since there appears to be proof that they ARE “interceding” on our behalf and that miracles have been performed (I take this on faith since I don’t know the history of every single saint and I don’t know what miracles most of them supposedly performed to merit sainthood) and there is definite proof that psychic mediumship DOES give information about things in a person’s life that no one would know and that this does NOT harm but rather brings many people TO God, and closer TO God (something that would not happen if Satan were to be the source of this information) – then isn’t this prohibition absurd? I realize this is a lot to ask in one question but frankly yesterday I went to a site on the commandments and what is mortal sin and it appears to me that we are ALL in a perpetual state of mortal sin since some of the things listed are done, to one degree or another, by everyone in the course of daily life (i.e., using obscenity: how many people use “curse words” when they get angry in traffic or are frustrated? MANY and there’s no intention to blaspheme at all.) We’re told in scripture that fear does not come from God. I’m now TERRIFIED because it appears to me that I am in a constant state of Mortal sin (from this URL: beginningcatholic.com/catholic-examination-of-conscience.html

This FEAR thing is what drove me from the RC church to begin with. Life is hard enough without walking around constantly terrified that “this thought” is going to send me to hell! Why would God create creatures in order to torment them and expect them to abide by these apparently man-made “rules” regarding heaven or hell as the final destination – KNOWING that VERY FEW would go anywhere but hell? Far too many contradictions, all those “councils”, all these rules, NONE of which appear in scripture. I thought EVERYTHING had to be said by JESUS Himself. NOWHERE do I see Him saying most of the things found in these rules and regulations. So where do I go with all of this?

It’s interesting to know you ‘think’ everything ‘had to be said by Jesus Himself’. . .might I ask where you found this teaching? I don’t find it in Scripture anywhere. . .

No worries. No fear needed. We are very opposed to actual idolatry!

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7E.HTM

As to the commandments:

catholic.com/quickquestions/what-is-the-correct-list-of-the-ten-commandments

and

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7F.HTM

and

catholic.com/quickquestions/why-does-the-church-allow-images-when-the-ten-commandments-forbids-them

catholic.com/tracts/do-catholics-worship-statues

As to what is mortal sin, venial sin or no sin…seek out good sources…the Catechism, the compendium a good work on moral theology etc…

Examinations of conscience often do not distinguish what is grave matter or venial matter…they are simply seeking to be aids to get us thinking…“did I do such and such” and presume I think we know that often a little lie is a venial sin and murder or lust is mortal…

(remember too that mortal sin requires not only grave matter, but full knowledge and deliberate consent vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6C.HTM)

PS: Not everything had to be said by Jesus himself while he walked the earth… There is so much that God has revealed to us in Divine Revelation, and there is much that is reasoned simply from such (application etc). …Jesus founded a Church and gave that Church authority to teach etc…

The 10 commandments are listed in long, undivided paragraphs in the Book of Exodus, and the Book of Deuteronomy. Catholics, guided by the Church, picked out the most important points, and grouped them together to get 10 succinct commandments. The Protestants later recounted, and came up with a different set.

As long as you live by the greatest commandment, as taught be Jesus, the other ten come naturally:

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your soul… You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

PS: Yes the consulting of “mediums” is sinful and not to be done…and dangerous in other ways.

But asking those in Heaven to pray for us is a good thing…and very different…God wants us to care for each other as a family…thus to pray for each other… Oh and they are very alive…more alive then we are. :slight_smile: Please read all the articles I linked…for they directly address much of your questions.

catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints

I imagine i missed some things you asked…but perhaps the links I gave will help. If not ask further. :slight_smile: You will find lots of info on the main Catholic Answers site (which is where I got the various articles other than the Catechism from)…just do a search.

(PS I would not be wasting time reading anti -Catholic sites…:))

"From him we draw our life. Without him, we cannot truly live. “God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son” (1 Jn 5:11). Jesus himself tells us that he is our life (cf. Jn 14:6). Consequently, Christian faith is not only a matter of believing that certain things are true, but above all a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It is an encounter with the Son of God that gives new energy to the whole of our existence. When we enter into a personal relationship with him, Christ reveals our true identity and, in friendship with him, our life grows towards complete fulfilment. "

–Pope Benedict XVI (vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/youth/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20100806_youth_en.html)

Let us follow Jesus of Nazareth! Let is live loving one another in his Church.

In Jesus of Nazareth is true life.

Let us remain living in Christ. Following him with joy …living the life he gives us in his Sacraments…and resist disordered fears…even if we fall unhappily into a mortal sin…let us return to him in confession with faith and let him heal us and give us his life again…

Let us live the life he give us! Resisting disordered fears…

"Moreover, our radical belonging to Christ and the fact that “we are in him” must imbue in us an attitude of total trust and immense joy. In short, we must indeed exclaim with St Paul: “If God is for us, who is against us?” (Rom 8: 31). And the reply is that nothing and no one “will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom 8: 39). Our Christian life, therefore, stands on the soundest and safest rock one can imagine. And from it we draw all our energy, precisely as the Apostle wrote: “I can do all things in him who strengthens me” (Phil 4: 13). "

Pope Benedict XVI Wed Aud. Nov 8 2006

Calm down. These churches write such things to gain members and justify their own existence.

Do you think the early Church Fathers were unaware of what Scripture said? Do you really think that some wanted to hide what it said, and then that each and every priest in the world hid the truth? Really??

Your concern is understandable. You want to be saved and you are beginning your personal understanding of the faith rather than just accepting what you are told. Good. You have a lot of research ahead of you.

Question #1: Why would God forbid the creation of graven images and a couple chapters later order the fabrication of a bronze serpent upon which the people must look to be healed?

Read this book: Surprised by Truth ed. Patrick Madrid. It will answer all of your questions in a readable and entertaining format. My research began there and I think you will find it helpful and reassuring.

Trust in God and His Catholic Church. He is not looking to “trip you up”.

Gem

=ellzeena;8409585]I stumbled upon this site today and it greatly alarmed and frightened me. Not that I haven’t heard arguments like this before (I spent time in evangelical Christianity after hearing the gospel preached in a manner I did NOT while in the Roman Catholic church – in school, during the 50s and early 60s), but this particular page really worries me. It states that the commandments have been changed by the Roman Catholic church and that we are committing idolatry by creating images of saints, Jesus, etc.; the thing that alarms me is that there does seem proof by comparison with original commandments that the RC church HAS changed the wording.
URL: the-ten-commandments.org/catholic_church_idolatry.html#

NOT ONLY is this NOT TRUE; it is a deliberate misstatement of what is true,

The Bible has TWO listings of the Commandments; In Exodus 20 2-17 and in Duet. 5:6-21
Both say same THE SAME THING in a different manner. Prot = Exo. and Cath. = Duet.

This protestant claim is duplicious by intent. They seperate the teachings of the 1st. Commandment into two seperate commandments and then combine what SHOULD be seperated in the 9th. and 10th. Commandment into ONE; the 10th.commnandment.

This is done PRECISELY to chagre the CC with idoloty; as being defined as worship of “graven images” According to this skewed understanding both God Himself and Moses are too idolitors!

BOTH QUOTES YAHWEH commanding MOSES!**Exod.25: 18, 20 **And you shall make two “cherubim” [ANGELS] of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. [20] The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be

Num.21: 8-9 And the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.

Prot. seperate Love and Worship of God into TWO commandments in order to place this charge. Catholics see Love of God as all encompassing. Period!

Catholics seperate thou shalt NOT covet anothers wife; from thou shat NOT covet a neoighbors material possessionsc. Seperating people from possessions.

Prot. “make” both people and all possessions the SAME and equal in value. People are treated as THINGS in there rendition. That is NOT what God sees and understands. We have souls; material things do not.

Still in the end and in-total BOTH list demand and or forbid the same things.

This pernicious Prtoestant attempt to justify themselves at the sake of the ONLY faith founded by God is SHOCKINGLY LACKING honestly and Christian charity.;

The Commandements forbid FALSE gods; not images that lead one; remind one of God! …The erreant position that claims that Catholics WORSHIP Mary and the Saints are ignorant of the truth that we “WORSHIP” God alone! We “reverence” and RESPECT what Mary and the Saints have accomplished, and pray THROUGH THEM. Not literally “to” them as the prayers are to God through them where they ADD there own petitions to ours making them far more perfect for our Perfect God. SPACE does not allow me to prove it here; but if anyone doubts what I am saying; PLEASE contact me and I’ll provide hard biblical evidence of what Catholic do beleive and why and HOW.

Thanks for asking!

God Bless,
Pat

The idolatry forbidden by Scripture is to worship as God, something or someone who is not God.

  1. Now, when you knelt before a statue did you think it was God and worship that peice of plaster or wood? If not,then you did not commit idolatry.
    When you prayed to the saints, did that prayer include recognizing them as God, worshipping them as God? If your answer is “No”, then you did not commit the sin of idolatry.
  2. Or did you recognize them as holy people/humans who are now in heaven, who can still love, care about, and intercede for their fellow human beings?
    If your answer is “Yes”, then you did not commit the sin of idolatry.

If we pray to saints, aren’t they dead?

Mt. 22:31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

… I realize this is a lot to ask in one question but frankly yesterday I went to a site on the commandments and what is mortal sin and it appears to me that we are ALL in a perpetual state of mortal sin since some of the things listed are done, to one degree or another, by everyone in the course of daily life (i.e., using obscenity: how many people use “curse words” when they get angry in traffic or are frustrated? MANY and there’s no intention to blaspheme at all.) We’re told in scripture that fear does not come from God. I’m now TERRIFIED because it appears to me that I am in a constant state of Mortal sin (from this URL: beginningcatholic.com/catholic-examination-of-conscience.html
This FEAR thing is what drove me from the RC church to begin with. Life is hard enough without walking around constantly terrified that “this thought” is going to send me to hell!

Where in the world did you get the idea that all the things listed in that examination of conscience are mortal sins? The site certainly doesn’t state that.

Now I don’t know what exactly caused your fear – was it something you actually did?
If you were in the state of mortal sin, (eg. killed someone, committed adultery,…) you should be in a state of fear until you repent, and then go to confession.
Or was it a fear of what you might do, that you might commit a mortal sin?
We all need to be on guard against sinning, but to experience “fear” as you seem to be describing it, over sin that hasn’t even been committed, is a little silly. And, I rather doubt you would ever have been taught that you should have such fear.

Far too many contradictions, all those “councils”, all these rules, NONE of which appear in scripture. I thought EVERYTHING had to be said by JESUS Himself. NOWHERE do I see Him saying most of the things found in these rules and regulations. So where do I go with all of this?

One would have to know specifically which rules and regulations you found contradictory to Scripture or absent in any way from Jesus’ teaching in order to have any sort of meaningful discussion about them. Why don’t you start a thread for each specific regulation; perhaps you will learn where it is covered in Scripture.

You were right when you said " I realize this is a lot to ask in one question". If you just wanted to vent, I guess it’s okay. But, if you’re truly looking for answers or discussion, you’re going to have to limit it to one topic per thread.

Welcome to the forum. I hope you will be able to get some helpful answers for your questions from the participants.

This is the church of JESUS the Christ, not PAUL the Apostle. JESUS told us what to believe, how to pray, what was acceptable to the Father and by his own demeanor showed us how to LIVE in order to please God. I really find it offensive that so much of the church teaching (and this is for Protestantism also since I was in evangelical protestantism for years for a while) depends upon PAUL. Paul did not go to the cross for us. Jesus did. And the recent (most recent) analysis of the Shroud of Turin places NO DOUBT about this. It was carefully analyzed for blood type (AB positive) and the manner in which it was created was scientifically reversed. For information regarding this:
greatshroudofturinfaq.com/

Something “supernatural” occurred upon his resurrection which created the “form” and they have even extracted a “picture” of Jesus from this examination. I saw one of the scientists on television who was part of this examination. He was an atheist at the time he began and was weeping when he spoke of how this man had been so badly battered that he looked like he had been in “a car wreck.”

It’s JESUS we should be following, not Paul. Paul’s commentaries to the churches are his own; perhaps they were inspired, perhaps not, only God knows that. Yet the Church insists on referring to them constantly. It’s JESUS who paid the price, Paul was martyred because of his faith in JESUS. I had a vision of the Blessed Mother as a five year old child, does this make ME a prophet capable of speaking for God in place of Jesus? NO.

There’s a lot of information in my original question. There are two very comprehensive URL sites I quoted. No one can answer my questions without reviewing those sites and giving them careful consideration.

Such is the will of Jesus.

Paul too was the idea of Jesus.

And what he wrote is the inspired Word of God…

So certainly one ought not be bothered by all by Paul and the fact of his great importance.

PLENTY to fear and worry about, to wit from your site:
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

Idolizing (by praying to) deceased humans who may or may not have actually accomplished miracles (quite difficult to determine a miracle from a natural event if it occurred 1500 years ago), is this not idolatry? We are “divinizing” humans, are we not?

Further:
2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to “unveil” the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone."

I seriously doubt there are Christians who worship Satan but there ARE Christians who consult psychic mediums because they’ve lost loved ones and this in no way indicates a desire “for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers.” Nor does this “contradict the honor, respect and loving fear that we owe to God alone”. In fact, the legitimate abilities of a small number of people (admittedly there are many frauds) is used to COMFORT and INCREASE the power of God in the receiver’s mind.

DID or DID NOT the Roman Catholic church CHANGE the commandments? Did you thoroughly review the site I included? That site points out, with other site references, that the wording was changed. So what does that say about the manner in which the message of Jesus has been abused or incorrectly communicated?

The Catholic Church does follow Jesus. . . .completely and totally. I see absolutely nothing in those sites that proves otherwise. Claims, maybe, but proves? Not in the slightest.

I would refer you to all the links I provided earlier. They answer your questions. These are not new questions but rather are ones that anti-catholic groups recycle.

Please read the various links provided above from Catholic Answers …they address them well… and worry not.

To quote one part of your answer (and thank you for it):
“We all need to be on guard against sinning, but to experience “fear” as you seem to be describing it, over sin that hasn’t even been committed, is a little silly. And, I rather doubt you would ever have been taught that you should have such fear.”

I certainly WAS taught I should have such a fear, by the nuns who educated me for twelve years. The “examination of conscience” I quoted (URL) in my original question contains a long, very long, list of common, everyday things (like using obscenity) that constitute MORTAL sin according to that site. I am a practicing Roman Catholic and in service to my parish but I have to tell you quite honestly that men are fallible, that even the Pope speaking “ex cathedra” can be fallible, nowhere does Jesus say the Pope is infallible, he says “that which you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, that which you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”, he doesn’t say “whatever the Pope speaks ex cathedra is absolutely the law of God.” There’s a problem in all this theology and apologetics, it’s circular reasoning, the answers obscure the questions and refer one to other answers that further obscure the questions. God didn’t intend it to be this complex. Most people are incapable of understanding a great deal of what was and is written (I can read Latin and Italian, most people can barely understand this stuff in English). The God I have had at my side throughout my entire life is full of mercy, love, encouragement, forgiveness and above all, hope.

Thank you all for your contributions, I very much appreciate the time you’ve taken to answer my questions. I’m far from an idiot, I have an advanced degree in a complex field and I find serious problems in the complexity of a great deal of what the church teaches. Jesus was a simple man with an eternal message intended for the poor, the lost, the ignorant. All this intellectualization of His simple message bothers me enormously.

When after the Reformation, as the Reformation got farther and farther away from their catholic roots, and threw out elements of the Mass to not be Catholic, what was left was “prayer” as worship and the Bible as their source of authority, since protestants rebelled against the authority of the Church given by Christ through the Pope.

DID or DID NOT the Roman Catholic church CHANGE the commandments? Did you thoroughly review the site I included? That site points out, with other site references, that the wording was changed. So what does that say about the manner in which the message of Jesus has been abused or incorrectly communicated?

Could you define what you mean? Could you cite the commandment changed by the RCC?
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