The cost of our faith.


#1

My husband says that Martin Luther left the catholic church because he didn’t like the way the Pope set strict rules and regulations. Also he mentioned that Martin Luther was fed up with the way catholics had to pay money for their faith to stay good with the church.
Can anyone elaborate on this.


#2

[quote=kayla]My husband says that Martin Luther left the catholic church because he didn’t like the way the Pope set strict rules and regulations.
[/quote]

Yeah, he wanted to set his own rules and regulations with himself in charge :slight_smile:

Also he mentioned that Martin Luther was fed up with the way catholics had to pay money for their faith to stay good with the church.

Incorrect.

cin.org/users/james/files/myths.htm


#3

What your husband didn’t tell you was that Martin Luther tried by return to the Catholic Chruch.


#4

It wasn’t so much that Martin Luther left the church. He was excommunicated for preaching heresy. He had been warned many times, to no avail. And, yes, I had heard that on his death bed he asked for a priest.


#5

[quote=dhgray]What your husband didn’t tell you was that Martin Luther tried by return to the Catholic Chruch.
[/quote]

I had not heard that. Can you give some evidence for this? Thank you.


#6

Martin Luther was a Priest during a time of great corruption in the Catholic Church. Luther (correctly) believed that God’s love in Jesus was a GIRT but (some) in the Catholic church were teaching that Christians had to BUY forgiveness to escape punishment for their sins. The papers were called “indulgence letters.” Luther spoke out against this and other things he felt were corrupt in the church… not so as to start his own religion, but to correct the unbiblical errors of the Catholic church. Unfortunatly he was persecuted and kicked out of the church. It’s a very sad chapter in Catholic History if you ask me. I’ve heard people say that rather than leave the Church Martin Luther should have stayed and tried to fix it from within. From what I’ve heard he was not given that opportunity. And I’ve never heard that he asked for a priest on his deathbed.


#7

Opps. That’s supposed to be “God’s love was a gift.”


#8

[quote=carol marie]Martin Luther was a Priest during a time of great corruption in the Catholic Church. Luther (correctly) believed that God’s love in Jesus was a GIRT but (some) in the Catholic church were teaching that Christians had to BUY forgiveness to escape punishment for their sins. The papers were called “indulgence letters.” Luther spoke out against this and other things he felt were corrupt in the church… not so as to start his own religion, but to correct the unbiblical errors of the Catholic church. Unfortunatly he was persecuted and kicked out of the church. It’s a very sad chapter in Catholic History if you ask me. I’ve heard people say that rather than leave the Church Martin Luther should have stayed and tried to fix it from within. From what I’ve heard he was not given that opportunity. And I’ve never heard that he asked for a priest on his deathbed.
[/quote]

I hope I did not read you out of context, but it seems to me that you make Luther out to be totally innocent. Yes Luther did see many legitimate problems with the Church of the time and he never did intend to leave it, however He did teach at Wittenburg, a hotbed of heresy, and started to also gain heretical views. He started to reject long established authorities such as the councils, tradition, the pope, etc. when they contradicted his heretical predispositions. Also, Luther was not an isolated case, there were many saints that came out of this period who in fact did call for reform and brought it about. It is always possible to work for reform without leaving the Church, as St. Augustine said there is no just cause for the sin of schism.


#9

[quote=carol marie]Martin Luther was a Priest during a time of great corruption in the Catholic Church. Luther (correctly) believed that God’s love in Jesus was a GIRT but (some) in the Catholic church were teaching that Christians had to BUY forgiveness to escape punishment for their sins. The papers were called “indulgence letters.” Luther spoke out against this and other things he felt were corrupt in the church… not so as to start his own religion, but to correct the unbiblical errors of the Catholic church. Unfortunatly he was persecuted and kicked out of the church. It’s a very sad chapter in Catholic History if you ask me. I’ve heard people say that rather than leave the Church Martin Luther should have stayed and tried to fix it from within. From what I’ve heard he was not given that opportunity. And I’ve never heard that he asked for a priest on his deathbed.
[/quote]

This complaint Martin Luther had about *selling *indulgence letters, as many would agree, was valid, however he had many other complaints about Catholic docrine I disagree with because they were heretical. He claimed the Eucharist was simply bread, whereas we believe that Christ is fully present in the Eucharist and it is bread no more, Martin Luther believed it remained bread and Christ was present in the meal… another complaint was the use of the relics of saints, he said the Catholic Church was placing too much importance in objects like Eucharistic Bread, and he did not agree with the Biblical Cannon, There are others but it has been 10 years since I studied it in college… so it reminds me I need to reread…I think when he tacked it up on the door, he believed there would be a change, unfortunately he went a little too far from Sacred Tradition.


#10

[quote=kayla]My husband says that Martin Luther left the catholic church because he didn’t like the way the Pope set strict rules and regulations. Also he mentioned that Martin Luther was fed up with the way catholics had to pay money for their faith to stay good with the church.
Can anyone elaborate on this.
[/quote]

Actually, Luther was protesting against the selling of indulgences (for the temporal pardon of sins) by certain members of the clergy, without allegedly explaining that people had to be sorry for their sins, which culminated in the posting of the 95 thesis on the door of the church of Wittemburg which ushered in the Reformation. While there were indeed abuses in the Church at the time (especially in the days of Pope Alexander VI) that needed correcting, Luther, instead of correcting it from within like what some medieval saints did, tried to destroy the Church from without.

Gerry :slight_smile:


#11

[quote=kayla]My husband says that Martin Luther left the catholic church because he didn’t like the way the Pope set strict rules and regulations. Also he mentioned that Martin Luther was fed up with the way catholics had to pay money for their faith to stay good with the church.
Can anyone elaborate on this.
[/quote]

Without in any way wanting to offend anyone, I would say your husband’s understandig of this issue is simply incorrect! Actually, it was the lack of strict rules and regulations, the corruption of 16th century Catholicism, that drove Luther to his rebellion against the Church he was a part of, since he was an Augustinian monk.

When your husband referred to “pay money for their faith” I presume he was talking to you about the abuse of indulgences or the selling of such spiritual gifts which, in and of itself, is the sin of simony.

The Church believed and still believes in indulgences. Indulgences, contrary to what has been said in this thread, are NOT letters. They are the merits of Christ on the cross applied by the Successors of St. Peter to people so they stay a shorter time in Purgatory purifying their eternal souls “before” they enter heaven. Some people think of Purgatory as a place where sins are forgiven. This view is incorrect, to say the least. Sins are forgiven on this earth normally through the Sacrament of Penance or Reconciliation, but upon death, the consequences of what we did must be purified before entering eternal bliss with God. Indulgences shorten our time of suffering in Purgatory. However, in the 16th century the hierarchy and the Pope, Leo X, began to ask for “donations” in exchange for indulgences. That’s what Martin Luther objected to among many other issues and he was correct in doing so. A rich person could buy several indulgences thus shortening his time in Purgatory because he had enough money to do so. A poor person could only buy one or two indulgences thus he would spend more time in Purgatory. Martin probably said, “How is that just?” Such scheme went against the virtue of justice. Today we still have indulgences in the Church, but to sell them would be the sin of simony and that is no longer permitted by Holy Mother Church.

Antonio :slight_smile:


#12

OK, I need help, can someone here show me in the Catechism exactly what the church says, and the Biblical support for Indulgences as I am explaining this to a Protestant.

Thanks


#13

X. INDULGENCES

1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.

What is an indulgence?

"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."81

"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin."82 The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.NT

The punishments of sin

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the "new man."84

In the Communion of Saints

1474 The Christian who seeks to purify himself of his sin and to become holy with the help of God’s grace is not alone. "The life of each of God’s children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person."85

1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things."86 In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.


#14

Continued…

1476 We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church’s treasury, which is "not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the ‘treasury of the Church’ is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ’s merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their efficacy."87

1477 "This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission in the unity of the Mystical Body."88

Obtaining indulgence from God through the Church

1478 An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishments due for their sins. Thus the Church does not want simply to come to the aid of these Christians, but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity.89

1479 Since the faithful departed now being purified are also members of the same communion of saints, one way we can help them is to obtain indulgences for them, so that the temporal punishments due for their sins may be remitted.


#15

what about the biblical basis, thanks BARRISTER


#16

Luther’s protest began by centering around two different (but related) issues. What brought him to attention was his objection to the abuses connected to indulgences. That in itself was not unorthodox, but Luther attacked indulgences by denying the principle that the Church had the keys of purgatory and could apply the merits of the saints in order to relieve the temporal punishment due to sin. Since popes had issued bulls claiming this power, Luther found himself embroiled in the question of papal authority, and ultimately of the authority of the Church more broadly. When confronted with authoritative Church teaching, Luther denied the authority of the Church rather than trying to rephrase his objection in a more acceptable way. I think that Luther was right to be nervous about the image of a “treasury of merit,” as if sin and merit could be manipulated like credits and debits in one’s bank account, with no regard to real personal transformation. But his way of attacking this showed no respect for the authority of the Church, and the Church understandably condemned him (though there was a lot of greed and power involved as well, and if the hierarchy had handled the issue differently things might have gone better).

Luther’s other, and (to him) deeper concern was about the doctrine of salvation generally. He believed that the abuses connected to indulgences were linked to the idea that we are saved by accumulating enough ritual acts and other good works that we earn God’s favor. The theological issues are complicated, but here too Luther had a good point but refused to work within the Catholic framework in addressing it. The result was an unbalanced theology that made a rather odd understanding of justification (Christ’s righteousness imputed to us) central to the doctrine of salvation. Again, today many Catholics see Luther’s view as not being totally heretical, and in fact Lutherans and Catholics recently agreed that the differences between them over justification by faith are not sufficient to divide the Church. The problem is that now the Church is divided, and Lutherans and other Protestants have learned to enshrine Luther’s insights as a “recovery of the Gospel,” absolutely central to their identity.

In Christ,

Edwin


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