The Creator.


#1

Does God create within himself or outside of himself?

Are we creations inside of God or did God extend his power outside of himself to create?

I don’t want to say that God created us within his mind because the mind of God is pure Spirit; however is this universe within God or outside of God?

Even if God does create outside of himself, yet consumes (possesses) the All then doesn’t that still mean we are creations within God?


#2

Creation is ‘outside’ of God. I don’t know how it/we could be ‘inside’, since God is unchanging, and there was a time when creation did not exist.

Hell is part of creation, as are the creatures in hell. How can hell be ‘inside’ God? Same thing with Purgatory.


#3

[quote="svid2, post:2, topic:275165"]
Creation is 'outside' of God. I don't know how it/we could be 'inside', since God is unchanging, and there was a time when creation did not exist.

Hell is part of creation, as are the creatures in hell. How can hell be 'inside' God? Same thing with Purgatory.

[/quote]

Yea but in the beginning there was only God. If God created an outside of himself it would still be within himself since there was no distinction of an outward existence before God.

If there was only God in the beginning that means that there was no external world because God precedes creation and an external world would be creation. Therefore God did not exist in an external world but was all that was in existence. If God created an external world he must have created it within himself since God was all of existence. Inner or outer becomes irrelevant since God is all of existence. Creation is within God because God was all of existence from the very beginning and is the All since the All came from him.


#4

. If God created an external world he must have created it within himself since God was all of existence. Inner or outer becomes irrelevant since God is all of existence.

To create is to cause something to exist besides oneself.
An artist who creates a painting doesn’t put the paint on himself. He paints a canvas which he can walk away from.

If God created something within himself that would be changing his structute, not creating.
But God can’t change his structure. He is unchanging.

What he creates is outside himself. It is something besides him. It is not him.


#5

Hmmm... Creation emanates to varying degrees (up) out of God's super-abundant goodness [and maybe then (down/back) *onto Himself, His understanding/substance... as He swoops beneath us for the rescue].

But of course God originally exists to us as a Trinity of distinct, divine Persons. We know that the Father generates the Son of Himself and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the two; and that all things of Creation were made through the Son as well. I tend to imagine this by thinking of a line segment that's also effectively a circle. "In geometry, a line segment is a part of a line that is bounded by two end points, and contains every point on the line between its end points" (Wiki). Thus the Father, and the Son, generated next in line, might be represented as each one end point, with the Holy Spirit then proceeding third, reciprocally, connecting the two as an infinite, individual love "between" both -- all three existing of the same indivisible Substance, the whole circle (i.e., Ipsum Esse Subsistens). However, so conceived -- in other words, as circular -- we can see potential "space" for creation within the void of some inner possible circularity, while the end points might just be thought immediately next to each other, or perhaps both at a single point. And OK, yeah, this isn't quite exactly a perfect and exhaustive analogy.

Anyway, that's some speculation. Surely all of the following is more pertinent. Genesis 1 (Douay-Rheims):

Keep in mind: that doesn't actually state that God existed alone in the beginning. Now, perhaps as distinct from the reality of Heaven the Lord simply created possibility in general as the potential "earth" realm. Then again, of course, in John 1 (D-R) we find another profound "In the beginning...":

Time, though, for a scholar to weigh in...


#6

The Thomistic take, from the part of the Summa on Creation:

[quote=The Dumb Ox]The words of Genesis, “In the beginning God created heaven and earth,” are expounded in a threefold sense in order to exclude three errors. For some said that the world always was, and that time had no beginning; and to exclude this the words “In the beginning” are expounded–viz. “of time.” And some said that there are two principles of creation, one of good things and the other of evil things, against which “In the beginning” is expounded–“in the Son.” For as the efficient principle is appropriated to the Father by reason of power, so the exemplar principle is appropriated to the Son by reason of wisdom, in order that, as it is said (Psalm 103:24), “Thou hast made all things in wisdom,” it may be understood that God made all things in the beginning–that is, in the Son; according to the word of the Apostle (Colossians 1:16), “In Him”–viz. the Son–“were created all things.” But others said that corporeal things were created by God through the medium of spiritual creation; and to exclude this it is expounded thus: “In the beginning”–i.e. before all things–“God created heaven and earth.” For four things are stated to be created together–viz. the empyrean heaven, corporeal matter, by which is meant the earth, time, and the angelic nature.
[/quote]

But in De Potentia:

[quote=The Angelic Doctor]God can and does make things from nothing.

In order to make this evident we must observe that every agent acts forasmuch as it is in act: wherefore action must needs be attributed to an agent according to the measure of its actuality. Now a particular thing is actual in a particular manner, and this in two ways. First by comparison with itself, because its substance is not wholly act, since such things are composed of matter and form: for which reason a natural thing acts not in respect of its totality, but in respect of its form whereby it is in act. Secondly, in comparison with things that are in act: because no natural thing comprises the acts and perfections of all the things that are in act: but each one has an act confined to one genus and one species, so that none has an activity extending to being as such, but only to this or that being as such, and confined to this or that species: for an agent produces its like. Wherefore a natural agent produces a being not simply, but determines a pre-existent being to this or that species, of fire, for example, or of whiteness and so forth. Wherefore the natural agent acts by moving something, and consequently requires matter as a subject of change or movement, and thus it cannot make a thing out of nothing.

On the other hand God is all act,—both in comparison with himself, since he is pure act without any admixture of potentiality,—and in comparison with the things that are in act, because in him is the source of all things, wherefore by his action he produces the whole subsistent being, without anything having existed before (since he is the source of all being), and in respect of his totality. For this reason he can make a thing from nothing, and this action of his is called creation. Wherefore it is stated in De Causis (prop. xviii) that being is by creation, whereas life and the like are by information: for all causation of absolute being is, traced to the first universal cause, while the causation of all that is in addition to being, or specific of being, belongs to second causes which act by information, on the presupposition as it were of the effect of the first cause. Hence no thing gives being except in so far as it partakes of the divine power. For this reason it is said again in De Causis (prop. iii) that the soul, by giving us being, has a divine operation.
[/quote]

Finally, further relevant is this; as is his commentary on the above first chapter of John. Oh, and Garrigou-Lagrange never fails to impress.


#7

Sacred_Heart;
Does God create within himself or outside of himself?

Maybe ask instead if there is a greatest way to create? Here is a childlike and yet profound way to test the power of the greatest commandments; when looking for a purpose for the creation of the universe and life. Can God love us more than he loves himself?

Did God have a complete plan for the creation of everything, did he think ahead? Were Christ’s life, death and resurrection planned before the creation of the universe began?
To search for a deeper meaning, was Christ freely given the choice to accept his sacrifice before the creation of the universe began?
What purpose can be so great, that it would compel God to create the universe and life, knowing in advance that his son would die?
Would it be to forgive the sins of mankind, or can there be something greater?

Challenge your mind to find a greatest good purpose for creation; by searching for answers to three questions.

What greatest thing can God create?
God could create all the stars and planets of the universe; he then becomes God the builder.
God could create a whole variety of life with almost no intelligence like plants; he now becomes God the gardener’
God could create life with more intelligence but if the knowledge is limited he has now created the animal kingdom. He now becomes God the farmer.
God could create life in his own image, a life that could understand him. Can God create anything greater than children in his own image, does he now become God the Father.
Does the greatest thing that God creates, depend on the relationship that he can have with them?

What greatest purpose can God have to create children in his own image?
Could love be the greatest reason for God to create children?
Could the ultimate God be a God who loves in the greatest way?

God the Father willingly loves all of mankind as he loves HIMSELF.

Can there be any greater reason to create children, even for God, can God love us more than he loves himself??

To find a greatest purpose for all God’s children.
What greatest purpose could God set for humanity? Would it be for everyone to turn to His kind of religion and pray the way that he stipulates, or would it be to banish poverty, gain intellectual superiority, conquer sickness and death, and subdue the universe or is there more?

If the greatest reason God could have to create mankind, is to love us, as he loves himself, then God could create mankind, with the freedom to return God’s love

All of mankind to be created with the freedom to love God the creator unconditionally, are we given the greatest commandment as a guide for this very purpose?

God willingly loves everyone as he loves himself; do we also need this same freedom to love everyone in the same way, so that the truth can be complete for God and mankind.

All of mankind, to be created with the freedom to love their neighbour; as they love themselves unconditionally; are we given the second greatest commandment as a guide?
Is this how God wants his children to be one? He wants us to love each other as we love ourselves.

In a way, God loves us more than he loves himself, because he was willing to do what was good for us but not good for him (send his Son to die). In a sort of contradicting way, God loves himself more than us, because he knows that he is the greatest being in the universe and retains the power of heaven or hell over us. When you ask the question; why did Christ say they are the greatest commandment, can it possibly be because God can do nothing greater?

Could the greatest commandments be a Greatest and Ultimate Truth?

If our greatest purpose for creation is to live by the greatest commandments, then this freedom to love also gives us the choice to do both good and evil. Are the greatest commandments powerful enough, to compel God to create the universe and life, knowing in advance the costs involved?

We can marvel at the great attention to detail that is evident in everything from the tiniest single cell of life and right up to the giant structures of galaxies. Can you find any greater purpose for all this to exist? Challenge the above statements in your mind in an honest way, test them against any religious beliefs, and test them against any form of logic.

This is only a collection of words to challenge the mind to think, I do not pretend to understand the meaning, or to make any claims of truth from these words. They are written without any qualifications, authority, or any conscious revelations from God. If these words should inspire you in some way, then please feel free to pass them on, I do not wish to make any claims for copyright, so you are free to distribute in any format and do anything with these words as you may desire, you may rewrite this in any way that has greater meaning for you.


#8

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