The cup of suffering


#1

Luke 22:42, Matthew 26:39, Matthew 26:42

Can anyone tell me what the "cup" refers to? Is it the physical and mental tortures that Christ was about to endure in His passion? Haydock's commentary stated that Christ's human nature was dreading the suffering he was about to endure, which leads to another problem in Matthew 10:28.

Here in v28, Jesus says not to fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul, so is He contradicting His own teaching by fearing what the persecutors are about to do to Him?


#2

Interesting question and I look forward to the responses.
Mary.


#3

It could mean that...Scott Hahn suggests that the cup is talking about the fourth cup...the last cup of the Passover meal. He notes that in the new testament, the Passover meal is interrupted after the cup of blessing, the third cup. Google Scott Hahn, the fourth cup. Deep theological stuff


#4

Just read Scott Hahn talking about the fourth cup. Wow.


#5

I've just read about the fourth cup, which is truly great stuff and gave me a whole new perspective at the Eucharist, but there are still some unresolved questions.

Why would Jesus say, "remove this cup from me" ? How does that tie in with the idea of a fourth cup? The only way I see it is that the symbolic fourth cup is removed in the temporal sense until He arrives at the cross and finishes the fourth cup by drinking the wine. This interpretation sounds very shaky so can anyone shed further light on this matter?

Does that also mean that the "cup" should not be interpreted as a cup of suffering and that Jesus was not dreading the persecutions to come?


#6

[quote="julianp24, post:5, topic:321018"]
I've just read about the fourth cup, which is truly great stuff and gave me a whole new perspective at the Eucharist, but there are still some unresolved questions.

Why would Jesus say, "remove this cup from me" ? How does that tie in with the idea of a fourth cup? The only way I see it is that the symbolic fourth cup is removed in the temporal sense until He arrives at the cross and finishes the fourth cup by drinking the wine. This interpretation sounds very shaky so can anyone shed further light on this matter?

[/quote]

Jesus was fully human, as well as fully divine. God fashioned humans to avoid suffering, and not to seek death. We have a basic instint that wants to live, and to avoid pain.

[quote="julianp24, post:5, topic:321018"]
Does that also mean that the "cup" should not be interpreted as a cup of suffering and that Jesus was not dreading the persecutions to come?

[/quote]

In doing so, He sets for us an example to follow.

Phil 2:3-8
4 Let each of you look not to your own interests, but to the interests of others. 5 Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus,
6 who, though he was in the form of God,
did not regard equality with God
as something to be exploited,
7 but emptied himself,
taking the form of a slave,
being born in human likeness.
And being found in human form,
8 he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death —
even death on a cross.

We are to embrace the cup of suffering the Father gives us, and to empty ourselves (of the natural desire for self preservation) in order to be conformed to His image, even unto death. We see this most clearly in the deaths of the martyrs.

Jesus did drink the cup that the Father poured for him.

John 18:11
1 Jesus said to Peter, "Put your sword back into its sheath. Am I not to drink the cup that the Father has given me?"


#7

[quote="guanophore, post:6, topic:321018"]
Jesus was fully human, as well as fully divine. God fashioned humans to avoid suffering, and not to seek death. We have a basic instint that wants to live, and to avoid pain.

In doing so, He sets for us an example to follow.

Phil 2:3-8
4 Let each of you look not to your own interests, but to the interests of others. 5 Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus,
6 who, though he was in the form of God,
did not regard equality with God
as something to be exploited,
7 but emptied himself,
taking the form of a slave,
being born in human likeness.
And being found in human form,
8 he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death —
even death on a cross.

We are to embrace the cup of suffering the Father gives us, and to empty ourselves (of the natural desire for self preservation) in order to be conformed to His image, even unto death. We see this most clearly in the deaths of the martyrs.

Jesus did drink the cup that the Father poured for him.

John 18:11
1 Jesus said to Peter, "Put your sword back into its sheath. Am I not to drink the cup that the Father has given me?"

[/quote]

Hmm I missed out John 18. This brings even more complications.

From your reply, it looks like you believe the cup refers to a cup of suffering and not the fourth cup as mentioned by Scott Hahn? If this cup is indeed a cup of suffering, and if it is indeed given to Jesus by His Father, then this resembles the Protestant's idea of God's wrath being poured on Jesus. Am I mistaken here?

Also, for those who believe in the fourth cup, since John 18 states specifically about the cup that the Father has given, and this in relation to Jesus asking his disciples to put their sword back, how does the fourth cup come into the picture now?

Lastly, you mentioned that humans have a basic instinct to avoid pain and Jesus was fully human too, therefore it follows that Jesus wanted to avoid pain too. However, isn't fear the driving force behind that instinct? If someone doesn't fear pain, that person wouldn't need to avoid pain. Does that mean that Jesus feared physical pain? (Bearing in mind the significance of Matthew 10:28)


#8

=julianp24;10560040]Luke 22:42, Matthew 26:39, Matthew 26:42

Can anyone tell me what the "cup" refers to? Is it the physical and mental tortures that Christ was about to endure in His passion? Haydock's commentary stated that Christ's human nature was dreading the suffering he was about to endure, which leads to another problem in Matthew 10:28.

Here in v28, Jesus says not to fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul, so is He contradicting His own teaching by fearing what the persecutors are about to do to Him?

Its a metaphore for KNOWING all of the details of His soon pendong PASSION and Death.

"But NOT My will Father; but THY Will be done." AMEN!

What a critical to salvation Lesson this is; and it is sadly deglected more than accepted.:bigyikes:


#9

[quote="PJM, post:8, topic:321018"]
Its a metaphore for KNOWING all of the details of His soon pendong PASSION and Death.

"But NOT My will Father; but THY Will be done." AMEN!

What a critical to salvation Lesson this is; and it is sadly deglected more than accepted.:bigyikes:

[/quote]

Hi PJM, if the cup is merely a metaphor for knowing the details of His passion and death, why did Jesus ask for it to be removed not by His will but by His Father's will? I really don't understand this.

Sorry for insisting on this point guys, but this is quite important for me. Thanks everyone for the effort! :)


#10

[quote="julianp24, post:1, topic:321018"]
Luke 22:42, Matthew 26:39, Matthew 26:42

Can anyone tell me what the "cup" refers to? Is it the physical and mental tortures that Christ was about to endure in His passion? Haydock's commentary stated that Christ's human nature was dreading the suffering he was about to endure, which leads to another problem in Matthew 10:28.

Here in v28, Jesus says not to fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul, so is He contradicting His own teaching by fearing what the persecutors are about to do to Him?

[/quote]

He faced His fears, obviously enduring what those who could kill the body had in store for Him.


#11

Lk. 22: 41-48
"And he was withdrawn away from them a stone’ s cast; and kneeling down, he prayed, Saying: Father, if thou wilt, remove this chalice from me: but yet not my will, but thine be done. And there appeared to him an angel from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony, he prayed the longer. [44] And his sweat became as drops of blood, trickling down upon the ground. And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow.

And he said to them: Why sleep you? arise, pray, lest you enter into temptation. As he was yet speaking, behold a multitude; and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near to Jesus, for to kiss him. And Jesus said to him: Judas, dost thou betray the Son of man with a kiss?"

My friend, I’m not sure what your reading? But this passage seems quite clear when it is returned to its context teaching.:slight_smile:

Ahhh. I get your question:thumbsup:

**Because this is JESUS in His Humanity praying to His Father in Divinity… **thaus the Fathers responce and the Angels to streghten Him.

It is the uman nature of Christ that endured the Passion and death on our behalf [thus he does become the New {offset} Adam].

Matthew 11:27
All things are delivered to me by my Father. And no one knoweth the Son, but the Father: neither doth any one know the Father, but the Son, and he to whom it shall please the Son to reveal him.

Matthew 26:29
And I say to you, I will not drink from henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I shall drink it with you new in the kingdom of my Father.

Matthew 26:42
Again the second time, he went and prayed, saying: My Father, if this chalice may not pass away, but I must drink it, thy will be done

Luke 2:49
And he said to them: How is it that you sought me? did you not know, that I must be about my father’ s business

John 5:43
I am come in the name of my Father, and you receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him you will receive.

John 8:54
Jesus answered: If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifieth me, of whom you say that he is your God.

John 12:27
Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour. But for this cause I came unto this hour [WAS SENT BY MY FATHER FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE] again Christ human nature speaking of Devine Nature:)

Does this clarify it for you?


#12

[quote="PJM, post:11, topic:321018"]
Lk. 22: 41-48
"And he was withdrawn away from them a stone' s cast; and kneeling down, he prayed, Saying: Father, if thou wilt, remove this chalice from me: but yet not my will, but thine be done. And there appeared to him an angel from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony, he prayed the longer. [44] And his sweat became as drops of blood, trickling down upon the ground. And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow.

And he said to them: Why sleep you? arise, pray, lest you enter into temptation. As he was yet speaking, behold a multitude; and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near to Jesus, for to kiss him. And Jesus said to him: Judas, dost thou betray the Son of man with a kiss?"

My friend, I'm not sure what your reading? But this passage seems quite clear when it is returned to its context teaching.:)

Ahhh. I get your question:thumbsup:

**Because this is JESUS in His Humanity praying to His Father in Divinity.... **thaus the Fathers responce and the Angels to streghten Him.

It is the uman nature of Christ that endured the Passion and death on our behalf [thus he does become the New {offset} Adam].

Matthew 11:27
All things are delivered to me by my Father. And no one knoweth the Son, but the Father: neither doth any one know the Father, but the Son, and he to whom it shall please the Son to reveal him.

Matthew 26:29
And I say to you, I will not drink from henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I shall drink it with you new in the kingdom of my Father.

Matthew 26:42
Again the second time, he went and prayed, saying: My Father, if this chalice may not pass away, but I must drink it, thy will be done

Luke 2:49
And he said to them: How is it that you sought me? did you not know, that I must be about my father' s business

John 5:43
I am come in the name of my Father, and you receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him you will receive.

John 8:54
Jesus answered: If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifieth me, of whom you say that he is your God.

John 12:27
Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour. But for this cause I came unto this hour [WAS SENT BY MY FATHER FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE] again Christ human nature speaking of Devine Nature:)

Does this clarify it for you?

[/quote]

This seems to support the Cup, as one of Sacrifice. The Cup of Sacrifice that Atones for our sins. Real pain suffered, real blood shed, true death of the 'Suffering Servant'.


#13

[quote="julianp24, post:7, topic:321018"]
Hmm I missed out John 18. This brings even more complications.

From your reply, it looks like you believe the cup refers to a cup of suffering and not the fourth cup as mentioned by Scott Hahn? If this cup is indeed a cup of suffering, and if it is indeed given to Jesus by His Father, then this resembles the Protestant's idea of God's wrath being poured on Jesus. Am I mistaken here?

Also, for those who believe in the fourth cup, since John 18 states specifically about the cup that the Father has given, and this in relation to Jesus asking his disciples to put their sword back, how does the fourth cup come into the picture now?

Lastly, you mentioned that humans have a basic instinct to avoid pain and Jesus was fully human too, therefore it follows that Jesus wanted to avoid pain too. However, isn't fear the driving force behind that instinct? If someone doesn't fear pain, that person wouldn't need to avoid pain. Does that mean that Jesus feared physical pain? (Bearing in mind the significance of Matthew 10:28)

[/quote]

Could the Cup not be Both.

First, one of Suffering( by Christ for us) ...then the Cup of Eucharist for us ..the Cup of Blessing ..the Cup of Eternal Life, receipt of the Real Presence of Christ ...the Resurrected Christ of Heaven, come down to us !


#14

I'm sorry but I still don't get it.

What does it mean by "He faced His fears"? When I face my fears, there's a chance that I may or may not succeed in conquering it, but nevertheless the fear is still present as a real entity in order for me to face it. So when Jesus faced His fears, it naturally follows that He had a fear in the first place! Again this doesn't solve the problem of Matthew 10:28.

I guess the cup can refer to both at the same time. But how does that fit into the context of Luke 22:42, Matthew 26:39, Matthew 26:42 and John 18:11?

Does anyone know if there's an official Catholic teaching regarding the meaning of this cup?

I think I need to make myself clearer. If the cup here is talking about the cup of suffering, and if this cup is said to be given to Jesus by His Father, does that mean that the Father is punishing Jesus by making Him suffer for humanity? This is NOT the Catholic's theology of atonement.

Furthermore, if the suffering Jesus was about to endure was merely temporal and done by the hands of sinners, then there's no reason for Jesus to fear it, for it contradicts Matthew 10:28.


#15

[quote="julianp24, post:14, topic:321018"]
I'm sorry but I still don't get it.

What does it mean by "He faced His fears"? When I face my fears, there's a chance that I may or may not succeed in conquering it, but nevertheless the fear is still present as a real entity in order for me to face it. So when Jesus faced His fears, it naturally follows that He had a fear in the first place! Again this doesn't solve the problem of Matthew 10:28.

[/quote]

I think we need to get past semantics. In Matt 10:28, do you think that Jesus would be instructing His followers to be completely stoic-to never experience fear of pain and death? No, He's telling them not to take it seriously-that pain and suffering in this life are temporary and we should deal with them as such-which is what He did. In fact, by revealing His human side in the face of such fears He made the act of facing them infinitely more relevant-He showed us how they should be handled.


#16

=julianp24;10564368]I'm sorry but I still don't get it.

What does it mean by "He faced His fears"? When I face my fears, there's a chance that I may or may not succeed in conquering it, but nevertheless the fear is still present as a real entity in order for me to face it. So when Jesus faced His fears, it naturally follows that He had a fear in the first place! Again this doesn't solve the problem of Matthew 10:28.
So does that mean that Jesus in His human nature was fearing the passion and suffering He was about to endure and thus required reassurance? Matthew 10:28 states that we shouldn't fear what humans can do to us, so if Jesus was afraid of the passion He was about to endure (which is inflicted by humans) isn't He contradicting His own teaching?

Absoutely right!
"Luke 22:44
And his sweat became as drops of blood, trickling down upon the ground"

We must forget that Jesus forsaw what was comming LONG before it took place in detail.

Mark 8:31
And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the ancients and by the high priests, and the scribes, and be killed: and after three days rise again.

Mt. 10:28 is a "moral teaching" that explains our Souls ARE of FAR gearter value than our bodies. So set your priorities right. IT IS NOT SAYING DO NOT FEAR DEATH.:rolleyes:

I guess the cup can refer to both at the same time. But how does that fit into the context of Luke 22:42, Matthew 26:39, Matthew 26:42 and John 18:11?

Lk.22-42 is Jesus THE MAN returning his human will to God's devine Will

Mt. 26-39 Is expressing is FEAR as a "man" knowing well as GOD what lie ahead of Him.
Jesus ALWAYS possesed BOTH natures: human and Devine

Jn.18:11 Jesus ask Peter " my friend Do YOU claim to know More and Knoe better than God?" In other words I MUST DO THIS in Obediece to the fathers Will. [tons of folks today make this claim]

Does anyone know if there's an official Catholic teaching regarding the meaning of this cup?

[quote]I think I need to make myself clearer. If the cup here is talking about the cup of suffering, and if this cup is said to be given to Jesus by His Father, does that mean that the Father is punishing Jesus by making Him suffer for humanity? This is NOT the Catholic's theology of atonement

NOTE:
Jn. 10:30 "I and the Father are one".

John 10:15
As the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father: and I lay down my life for my sheep.

2 John 10:17
Therefore doth the Father love me: because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.

John 10:18
No man taketh it away from me: but I lay it down of myself, and I have power to lay it down: and I have power to take it up again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Furthermore, if the suffering Jesus was about to endure was merely temporal and done by the hands of sinners, then there's no reason for Jesus to fear it, for it contradicts Matthew 10:28.

WOW! Friend yu really Do lack understanding.:hug1: Pleaee go bck and reread what I shared is the REAL and ACTUAL teaching of mt. 10:28:shrug:
[/quote]


#17

[quote="julianp24, post:14, topic:321018"]
I'm sorry but I still don't get it.

What does it mean by "He faced His fears"? When I face my fears, there's a chance that I may or may not succeed in conquering it, but nevertheless the fear is still present as a real entity in order for me to face it. So when Jesus faced His fears, it naturally follows that He had a fear in the first place! Again this doesn't solve the problem of Matthew 10:28.

So does that mean that Jesus in His human nature was fearing the passion and suffering He was about to endure and thus required reassurance? Matthew 10:28 states that we shouldn't fear what humans can do to us, so if Jesus was afraid of the passion He was about to endure (which is inflicted by humans) isn't He contradicting His own teaching?

I guess the cup can refer to both at the same time. But how does that fit into the context of Luke 22:42, Matthew 26:39, Matthew 26:42 and John 18:11?

Does anyone know if there's an official Catholic teaching regarding the meaning of this cup?

I think I need to make myself clearer. If the cup here is talking about the cup of suffering, and if this cup is said to be given to Jesus by His Father, does that mean that the Father is punishing Jesus by making Him suffer for humanity? This is NOT the Catholic's theology of atonement.

Furthermore, if the suffering Jesus was about to endure was merely temporal and done by the hands of sinners, then there's no reason for Jesus to fear it, for it contradicts Matthew 10:28.

[/quote]

Christ taught we too must take up our Crosses, and follow him. That would suggest we too must suffer for belief in him.

So Penal Substitution alone, or His Atonement/Satisfaction for Sin alone...would seem only our beginning. We must cooperate with Christ ...in this life, in obedience, and suffer too .....so teaches St. PAUL.


#18

[quote="fhansen, post:15, topic:321018"]
I think we need to get past semantics. In Matt 10:28, do you think that Jesus would be instructing His followers to be completely stoic-to never experience fear of pain and death? No, He's telling them not to take it seriously-that pain and suffering in this life are temporary and we should deal with them as such-which is what He did. In fact, by revealing His human side in the face of such fears He made the act of facing them infinitely more relevant-He showed us how they should be handled.

[/quote]

Finally! Thanks for the reply, most of the replies here have been pretty vague. I think it could be because everyone is assuming I know some stuff that they already knew. Or maybe my question wasn't very clear. But this answered my question. :thumbsup:

I never said that this verse is about fearing death, but thanks anyway for this different perspective.

Lastly, can someone give me a direct and straightforward explanation for the meaning of the cup? An interpretation according to the context of the verse? Something along the lines of:
"The cup here is referring to/ or talking about..." and
"The cup is something that can or cannot be removed from Him because..." and
"The cup is given to Jesus by His Father, NOT because the Father is punishing Him, but..."(If there's one thing I'm certain, it's this: that the Father DID NOT punish Jesus, therefore how should this verse be interpreted then?)

I would very much want to be spoon fed on this subject, because I'm not very familiar with scriptures and throwing a bunch of verses at me will just confuse me even further, sorry if I sound too demanding. My protestant friend has asked me for the meaning of this cup according to Catholics and I couldn't find it anywhere online. He has said that the cup being the wrath of God poured out at Jesus would fit the context and I have no comeback for that. Therefore, a thorough explanation would be very much appreciated.

Thanks and God bless :)


#19

[quote="julianp24, post:18, topic:321018"]
Finally! Thanks for the reply, most of the replies here have been pretty vague. I think it could be because everyone is assuming I know some stuff that they already knew. Or maybe my question wasn't very clear. But this answered my question. :thumbsup:

I never said that this verse is about fearing death, but thanks anyway for this different perspective.

Lastly, can someone give me a direct and straightforward explanation for the meaning of the cup? An interpretation according to the context of the verse? Something along the lines of:
"The cup here is referring to/ or talking about..." and
"The cup is something that can or cannot be removed from Him because..." and
"The cup is given to Jesus by His Father, NOT because the Father is punishing Him, but..."(If there's one thing I'm certain, it's this: that the Father DID NOT punish Jesus, therefore how should this verse be interpreted then?)

I would very much want to be spoon fed on this subject, because I'm not very familiar with scriptures and throwing a bunch of verses at me will just confuse me even further, sorry if I sound too demanding. My protestant friend has asked me for the meaning of this cup according to Catholics and I couldn't find it anywhere online. He has said that the cup being the wrath of God poured out at Jesus would fit the context and I have no comeback for that. Therefore, a thorough explanation would be very much appreciated.

Thanks and God bless :)

[/quote]

It would seem it was mankind, tempted by satan, who poured out the abuse and punishment on Christ. Can mankind blame the Father for the Death of Jesus ? It is we, through our forebears, who denied, turned Apostate, left Jesus, and otherwise rejected Christ ...via unbelief.

Only a few stayed Loyal to the end. John, Mary, the women, and perhaps some more of the Apostles who aren't mentioned.


#20

[quote="julianp24, post:14, topic:321018"]
I'm sorry but I still don't get it.

What does it mean by "He faced His fears"? When I face my fears, there's a chance that I may or may not succeed in conquering it, but nevertheless the fear is still present as a real entity in order for me to face it. So when Jesus faced His fears, it naturally follows that He had a fear in the first place! Again this doesn't solve the problem of Matthew 10:28.

So does that mean that Jesus in His human nature was fearing the passion and suffering He was about to endure and thus required reassurance? Matthew 10:28 states that we shouldn't fear what humans can do to us, so if Jesus was afraid of the passion He was about to endure (which is inflicted by humans) isn't He contradicting His own teaching?

I guess the cup can refer to both at the same time. But how does that fit into the context of Luke 22:42, Matthew 26:39, Matthew 26:42 and John 18:11?

Does anyone know if there's an official Catholic teaching regarding the meaning of this cup?

I think I need to make myself clearer. If the cup here is talking about the cup of suffering, and if this cup is said to be given to Jesus by His Father, does that mean that the Father is punishing Jesus by making Him suffer for humanity? This is NOT the Catholic's theology of atonement.

Furthermore, if the suffering Jesus was about to endure was merely temporal and done by the hands of sinners, then there's no reason for Jesus to fear it, for it contradicts Matthew 10:28.

[/quote]

First, we need to establish what Jesus meant by 'fearing' those that can kill the body. Did He mean that we must not ever feel that simple human emotion that causes our adrenaline to rush and the hair on our neck to stand up? That gives us that sickening feeling in the pit of our stomach? Or did He mean that we musn't fear those who can kill the body, as in placing great importance on our temporal life, so much so that we fail to follow God to the fullest? To me, it must logically be the latter.

Christ, being fully man, was not exempt from natural human emotion. This would kind of defeat the purpose of Him 'becoming man' if He was free from perfectly natural human functions (this does not include sin and disordering of the will). Christ still felt 'fear' in an emotional way, just as anyone would feel immediately before a gruesome torture and death. However, He obviously showed, by His willful action, that He loved God and didn't fear the destruction of His flesh in a willful, intellectual way. He didn't want to suffer and die (who would?), but He loved God so much that He willfully chose to follow Him. He had none of the fear He refers to previously. He has human emotional fear, but not the impious fear of the intellect and will that would result in rejecting God's will (as we do).

Secondly, Christ did not suffer 'penal substitution'. God is infinite. His wrath (justice) are infinite. Thus, He would have an infinite amount of wrath to pour out of Christ. This makes no sense that He somehow was able to absorb infinite wrath, and also makes no sense because the Father's wrath is also Christ's wrath. Their justice is one and the same. Why would Christ pour out wrath on Himself?

HOWEVER, this does not mean that the Father didn't WILL and DESIRE that His Son should suffer and die for us in order to save us. This was His plan all along. However, God did not do anything to Christ in the way of punishment. Rather, He allowed wicked men to freely commit their sin. He used sin itself to conquer death, so that which led to the advent of death also helped bring about eternal life. Christ suffered nothing at the hands of God. He suffered by the sins of those who killed Him, and He suffered because of our sins. God did not punish Him. He allowed His Son to free us from ourselves by our own wicked actions. Clever, no?


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