The cup of suffering


#21

what a great thread :thumbsup:


#22

[quote="PeaceInChrist, post:20, topic:321018"]
First, we need to establish what Jesus meant by 'fearing' those that can kill the body. Did He mean that we must not ever feel that simple human emotion that causes our adrenaline to rush and the hair on our neck to stand up? That gives us that sickening feeling in the pit of our stomach? Or did He mean that we musn't fear those who can kill the body, as in placing great importance on our temporal life, so much so that we fail to follow God to the fullest? To me, it must logically be the latter.

Christ, being fully man, was not exempt from natural human emotion. This would kind of defeat the purpose of Him 'becoming man' if He was free from perfectly natural human functions (this does not include sin and disordering of the will). Christ still felt 'fear' in an emotional way, just as anyone would feel immediately before a gruesome torture and death. However, He obviously showed, by His willful action, that He loved God and didn't fear the destruction of His flesh in a willful, intellectual way. He didn't want to suffer and die (who would?), but He loved God so much that He willfully chose to follow Him. He had none of the fear He refers to previously. He has human emotional fear, but not the impious fear of the intellect and will that would result in rejecting God's will (as we do).

Secondly, Christ did not suffer 'penal substitution'. God is infinite. His wrath (justice) are infinite. Thus, He would have an infinite amount of wrath to pour out of Christ. This makes no sense that He somehow was able to absorb infinite wrath, and also makes no sense because the Father's wrath is also Christ's wrath. Their justice is one and the same. Why would Christ pour out wrath on Himself?

HOWEVER, this does not mean that the Father didn't WILL and DESIRE that His Son should suffer and die for us in order to save us. This was His plan all along. However, God did not do anything to Christ in the way of punishment. Rather, He allowed wicked men to freely commit their sin. He used sin itself to conquer death, so that which led to the advent of death also helped bring about eternal life. Christ suffered nothing at the hands of God. He suffered by the sins of those who killed Him, and He suffered because of our sins. God did not punish Him. He allowed His Son to free us from ourselves by our own wicked actions. Clever, no?

[/quote]

Thanks! Peace be with you :)


#23

[quote="PeaceInChrist, post:20, topic:321018"]
First, we need to establish what Jesus meant by 'fearing' those that can kill the body. Did He mean that we must not ever feel that simple human emotion that causes our adrenaline to rush and the hair on our neck to stand up? That gives us that sickening feeling in the pit of our stomach? Or did He mean that we musn't fear those who can kill the body, as in placing great importance on our temporal life, so much so that we fail to follow God to the fullest? To me, it must logically be the latter.

Christ, being fully man, was not exempt from natural human emotion. This would kind of defeat the purpose of Him 'becoming man' if He was free from perfectly natural human functions (this does not include sin and disordering of the will). Christ still felt 'fear' in an emotional way, just as anyone would feel immediately before a gruesome torture and death. However, He obviously showed, by His willful action, that He loved God and didn't fear the destruction of His flesh in a willful, intellectual way. He didn't want to suffer and die (who would?), but He loved God so much that He willfully chose to follow Him. He had none of the fear He refers to previously. He has human emotional fear, but not the impious fear of the intellect and will that would result in rejecting God's will (as we do).

Secondly, Christ did not suffer 'penal substitution'. God is infinite. His wrath (justice) are infinite. Thus, He would have an infinite amount of wrath to pour out of Christ. This makes no sense that He somehow was able to absorb infinite wrath, and also makes no sense because the Father's wrath is also Christ's wrath. Their justice is one and the same. Why would Christ pour out wrath on Himself?

HOWEVER, this does not mean that the Father didn't WILL and DESIRE that His Son should suffer and die for us in order to save us. This was His plan all along. However, God did not do anything to Christ in the way of punishment. Rather, He allowed wicked men to freely commit their sin. He used sin itself to conquer death, so that which led to the advent of death also helped bring about eternal life. Christ suffered nothing at the hands of God. He suffered by the sins of those who killed Him, and He suffered because of our sins. God did not punish Him. He allowed His Son to free us from ourselves by our own wicked actions. Clever, no?

[/quote]

PEACE ...

This above seems to agree with St.Augustine's Mousetrap Theory/ Explanation. Do you agree/subscribe to the entrapment of satan, at Calvary, ....or to a more modern day Church explanation?


#24

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