The dead...

#1

The dead.

How is it that a majority of professing Christians have become so confused as to what happens when a human is dead in spite of the plethora of Scriptures that answer the question quite simply?

How is it they come to the conclusion that we really don’t die when we die? You either go to Heaven or hell or somewhere in between when you die, right? How can you do that, and know it, if you are dead? What Scriptures can they quote that prove their theory? I know of none.

The truth is God says:

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, (Genesis 2:16)

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (Genesis 2:17)

And the liar satan says:

But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.” (Genesis 3:4)

I don’t have to ask which doctrine is being taught in professing Christian “churches” all over this world. We are taught that we really don‘t die. Am I wrong? We go somewhere and do something, don’t we?

Why do so many people believe satan? Scripture plainly states that he is the liar of all liars…

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. (John 8:44)

Christ spoke these word’s in case you have forgotten. So now we are faced with a choice. Do we believe God that we now die or do we believe satan that we don’t die? I’ll go with God. When we go with God on this subject Scriptures tell us what it is like to die, be dead.

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun. (Ecclesiastes 9:6)

These two Scriptures expose so many lies. Can a soul be in Heaven or hell or some state in between and know nothing? Can a father who dies in a tragic accident be looking over his young daughter, keeping her from harms way?

Not according to God’s word. Even Job knew one must wait to be renewed {resurrected} before you were aware of anything again…

If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my service I would wait, till my renewal should come. (Job 14:14)

And Solomon…

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol{the grave}, to which you are going. (Ecclesiastes 9:10)

And God again…

By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return." (Genesis 3:19)

So why? Why all the fantasies of men instead of the Scriptural truth?

MONEY?

#2

You write of “Scriptures.” Various Christian groups have different collections of writings they call “the Bible.” Which Bible? Whose canon? Here’s a Methodist website that will explain. gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/canon2.stm

That Christianity was based on the Bible (Martin Luther’s cut version) was a notion born in the 16th century. The Catholic Church is nearly 400 years older than the Bible, which she formed and named at the close of the fourth century A.D.
The New Testament reflects the teachings of the Catholic Church who wrote it, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Church is the only rightful interpreter of her own writings.

There are thousands of conflicting and competing Protestant denominations, all based on the same 66-book incomplete version of the Bible truncated by Martin Luther, and no two of agree about what the Bible means. Your interpretation of what happens after death is but one among many notions born in the 16th century or later. Probably later – most likely much later.

Gimme that ole time religion . . . the original religion . . . taught by the Apostles.

Peace be with you, Katholikos

#3

:yawn: I see you’re still trying to twist the Bible around to support your anti-Catholic beliefs M_Oliver. :tsktsk:

#4

That’s my thoughts too.

Shame on you M_Oliver. :tsktsk:

#5

Based on the scriptures he has given, I would speculate that M_Oliver is a Seventh Day Adventist.

They use those exact scriptures to prove the soul falls asleep and awaits the Second Coming of Christ.

#6

Neither the Church or her Scriptures teach “soul sleep”. However, I do have a question that I’ve been asking my non Catholic/non-Orthodox friends that may put a little more focus upon this issue. Here it is.

Friends,

One of the reasons I converted was the existence of so many questions that were not answered and could not be answered in Protestantism that had long ago been answered in Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Even if both lungs did not agree exactly at least both had offered a serious struggle with the questions.

One of the questions left not seriously addressed in any Protestant circle except perhaps Anglicanism is the question of what happens to the person who is baptized, led a farily good life, but dies with sin in their lives. This isn’t just an academic question. This is one of those questions that bothered me for decades before I left the UMC ministry and converted. I truly had nothing to say to people whose loved ones had died in this state and the loved onew knew the depatted had unrepented sin in their lives.

I know that we pray for the dead and leave the particulars to God. It is one of the many mysteries in which we rejoice as people who know eternity is not time bound and that God is the one truly Just Judge. Roman Catholics take it a bit further and define a doctrine of Purgatory. In either case we address the issue.

How would a non-Apostolic Christian seriously address the issue of the loved one, baptized, but bearing sin at death? And yes, that does mean that I don’t believer the original poster’s attempt is serious.

CDL

#7

What a depressing view of death! Why would anyone convert to such a doctrine? It provides little consolation to those with lost loved ones.

#8

How is it that a vast minority of those who have mis-appropriated the name “Christian” can fool themselves into thinking that their particular brand of heresy has not already been rejected by Christianity?

How is it they come to the conclusion that we really don’t die when we die? You either go to Heaven or hell or somewhere in between when you die, right? How can you do that, and know it, if you are dead? What Scriptures can they quote that prove their theory? I know of none.

Ecclesiastes 12:5-7
Also they are afraid of height,
And of terrors in the way;
When the almond tree blossoms,
The grasshopper is a burden,
And desire fails.
**For man goes to his eternal home,
And the mourners go about the streets. **
6 Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed,
Or the golden bowl is broken,
Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain,
Or the wheel broken at the well.
7 **Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
****And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
**
Genesis 35:18-19 And so it was, as her soul was departing (for she died), that she called his name Ben-Oni; but his father called him Benjamin. 19 So Rachel died and was buried on the way to Ephrath (that is, Bethlehem).

Matthew 22:29-33 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 * ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’*? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

John 11:26 And whoever lives and believes in Me(Jesus) shall never die. **Do you believe this?”
**Well do you, M_Oliver? Or is Jesus a liar on par with Satan?

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-15 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
Why would He bring something He does not have?

Revelation 6:9-10 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Does this mean eternal life except for while my soul is taking a “dirt-nap”?

1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

That’s a decent start.

An even MORE pertinent question is:
Since belief in “soul-sleep” is not a pre-requisite for eternal life, why should I care? If “soul-sleep” is true and I’m wrong about it…what???..Am I gonna be so suprised that I forget to be resurrected? What’s the big deal? (other than you getting to think that your gnostic beliefs are superior to Christian belief)

I relegate “soul-sleep” and the “rapture” to the “Museum of Doctrinal Oddities and Irrelavancy.” Two of the made up doctrines which have no actual effect upon my ultimate destiny.

Peace,
+Nathan

#9

Let’s keep this on an intelligent level for a change. For once, just once, could I observe a Scripturally based response that **refutes **the Scriptures that I post.

While you are studying, ponder this piece of God’s word too…

For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,
(Acts 2:34)

until I make your enemies your footstool.’ (Acts 2:35)

#10

What part of:

Ecclesiastes 12:5-7
Genesis 35:18-19
Matthew 22:29-33
John 11:26
Matthew 10:28
Revelation 6:9-10
Romans 6:23
1 Peter 3:18-20

do you NOT consider scripture?

For once, just once, could we please entertain a battle of wits with an SDA who isn’t unarmed? I have been forced into verbal fencing with SDA’s for over twenty years (my wife was raised SDA and converted) and the thing that I have finally come to understand is that when it comes to defending their gnosticism they can’t seem to muster more logic and reasoning skills than a fourteen year old who put his hands over his ears and screams, “MY MIND IS MADE UP, DON"T CONFUSE ME WITH THE FACTS!!!” Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, But he who heeds counsel is wise.

My momma always said, “If you argue with a fool for very long people won’t be able to tell which is which.” Therefore I will heed the words of Solomon (and my momma).
**
Proverbs 14:7****
Go from the presence of a foolish man, When you do not perceive in him the lips of knowledge.**

See ya later. Feel free to PM me if you think you can muster up some reasoning skills, or better yet go get your daddy or big brother, maybe they can do a better job of expressing what you seem to be having trouble with.

Peace,
+Nathan

#11

Awesome question.
I think it deserves it’s own thread.

Peace,
+Nathan

#12

Quoting former Lutheran Fr. Richard John Neuhaus, “Luther said, Scripture, like wax noses, can be twisted to fit.”

Those who twist Scripture have been given a name: Protestant.

.

#13

Let’s look at what Jesus said about death:

John 6

Amen, amen, I say to you,
whoever believes has eternal life.
I am the bread of life.
Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;
this is the bread that comes down from heaven
so that one may eat it and not die.
I am the living bread that came down from heaven;
whoever eats this bread will live forever;
and the bread that I will give
is my Flesh for the life of the world.”

or John 3:16

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotton son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Did you ever notice when reading the bible that whenever Jesus talks about death he refers to his enemies?

“the wages of sin is death.”

#14

In the Old Testament, Isaiah 14:9-17 indicates clearly that the dead are conscious, and the New Testament tells the same story. In 1 Peter 3:19, the apostle tells his audience how, after Jesus died on the cross, he “preached to the spirits in prison.” If the dead were aware of nothing, his preaching would have been futile.

So to be absent from the body is not to be unconscious; rather, it enables one to be home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8, Phil. 1:23). The body is just a tent or a tabernacle that does not last (2 Cor. 5:1-4; 2 Pet. 1:13), while man cannot kill the soul (Matt 10:28). Our souls live after the death of our bodies, since John “saw . . . the souls of those slaughtered . . . and they cried with a loud voice, saying . . . and they were told . . .” (Rev. 6:9-11). Because the soul does not die with the flesh, those in heaven are able to offer our prayers to God (Rev. 5:8) and live in happiness (Rev. 14:13).

Those who led an unrighteous life are just as conscious of their punishment as the just are of their joy. If one is in hell, “he shall be tormented with fire and sulfur . . . the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest” (Rev. 14:11). This is an “everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41-46).

Jesus tells his listeners of Lazarus and the rich man, where the rich man dies and “existing in torments . . . he sees . . . calls out . . . ‘I am in anguish in this blazing fire’” (Luke 16:19-31). As a further illustration, Jesus stated that hell is likened to Gehenna. This Valley of Hinnom was located southeast of Jerusalem and was used as a garbage dump where trash and waste were burned continuously day and night. Jesus informs the listeners that hell is like this, “where the maggot does not die, and fire is not put out” (Mark 9:42-48). It is the place where the wicked are sent, and from this “everlasting fire” (Matt. 18:8) will come “weeping and the gnashing of teeth” (Matt. 8:12). Now, if hell were “a place of rest in hope” as the Watchtower teaches, Jesus would not have chosen such contradictory illustrations to convey this.
Catholic Answers

He also sounds like a JW. So if you are still here, feast your eyes on the above scripture which is only a part of the proof of life after death. The scripture you reference is regarding the body, not the spirit or soul which lives on after death. Like most religions other than the one established by God you do not read the whole bible and take it in context. You can’t pick and choose scripture or you will certainly lose.

#15

Well Nate my friend, it is almost embarrassing that I have to explain such elementary mistakes. I can relate to the errors though because I too was once blinded by the doctrines of modern Christendom. Thank God I’m past that :).

First off you make a very grave error in assuming that I am SDA. SDA teaches some VERY unScriptural doctrines. Off the top of my head I can’t think of one thing they have right…they probably have something right, all false churches do.

You list 8 Scriptures and ask if I consider Scripture. My God, do you read what I post? I post more Scripture on average than anyone on this board. Geeeeessshhhhh!

Let us consider a few of them. By the way, the rest of you should pay attention. This is good.

they are afraid also of what is high, and terrors are in the way; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags itself along, and desire fails, because man is going to his eternal home, and the mourners go about the streets-- (Ecclesiastes 12:5)

You didn’t bother to say but I am sure you are zeroing in on the word “eternal”. **My friend, I can WITHOUT ANY doubt, tell you there is not one single word in the hebrew or greek that means eternal. Not one single word! ** H5769-olam means concealed, hidden, as in being in a grave. I really wish catholics would study this for themselves and quit believing this garbage.

Genesis 35:18: It backs up everything I am saying unless you have a translation I am not aware of that is way out of bounds.

Matthew 22:29-33:

But Jesus answered them, "You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. (Matthew 22:29)

**For in the resurrection **they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. (Matthew 22:30)

And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: (Matthew 22:31)

‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living." (Matthew 22:32)

And when the crowd heard it, they were astonished at his teaching. (Matthew 22:33)

Sorry, I do completely understand what Christ is talking about in this exchange. I know you are talking about “but of the living” 22:32. Why do you completely ignore the references to the resurrection? One says the “RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD”.

When one is resurrected from the DEAD, he is living. God is the God of the resurrected dead{the LIVING}. When one is resurrected from the DEAD he is LIVING.

This verse is universally taught in a false manner to make people think we don’t die when we die. HOW can a mortal man be resurrected from the DEAD if he does not DIE? Am I going to fast for anyone??

John 11:26:

and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11:26)

Again, a gross distortion. Did you not notice verse 25? **I am the resurrection **He says. You can’t be resurrected if you are not dead. Once you are resurrected you of course cannot die, you are now IMMORTAL{deathlessness!}

Matthew 10:28:

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)

I could right pages on this one verse alone. Look it. The body combined with the spirit is the living soul. Of course God {Christs Father} can destroy both. The body destruction is obvious. The spirit can be destroyed{and relpenished} by fire{THE TRUTH}.

**If you are trying to scare me with “hell” don’t bother. This false doctrine is the most damnable heresy ever taught by Christendom. ** It is dirty religion!

You get the point Nate. It is you who really is not prepared to debate the deeper things of God.

It is YOU who this describes and this is a direct quote of YOU…

“MY MIND IS MADE UP, DON"T CONFUSE ME WITH THE FACTS!!!”

#16

I almost forgot. Noone seems to be able to REFUTE…

For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,
until I make your enemies your footstool.’ (Acts 2:34-35)

#17

Yes. It’s true.

David was not brought body and soul into heaven like Enoch, Elijah, or Mary were for example. And no one except Jesus himself actually ascended into heaven by their own divine power.

I’m not sure what you’re getting at to be honest. :slight_smile:

#18

How come all of your death Scriptures come from the Old Testament?

#19

Yes - I noted that too. He fails to address the development of Christian doctrine in the Bible. When reading the bible the Old Testament needs to be read in light of what Jesus said and did. It is only through Jesus that we can interpret the Old Testament. Throwing out a bunch of bible texts without the historical development of the doctrine does nothing for me.

#20

IMHO, it is infinitely wiser to believe in a God and there not be than to not believe in God and die and find out He really exists.

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