The Death of Spain - new chapter

**The Death of Spain - new chapter **

A group of lawyers in the Spanish city of Murcia (Autonomous Community of Murcia) has asked the Government Delegation in Murcia to remove a statue of Our Lord, the “Cristo de Monteagudo” (built in 1951 in the fashion of the Christ the Redeemer of Rio de Janeiro). The statue is “a relic of the Catholic totalitarianism imposed by the Franco regime, and remains on top of the Muslim castle of Monteagudo, whose beauty it ruins,” according to the Association for the Precedence of the Law, an association of secular lawyers, and its president, José Luis Mazón. The Association mentioned in its petition to the government, among other arguments, the decision of the European Court of Human Rights banning the image of the Crucified Lord in Italian public schools.

The Bishop of Cartagena, José Manuel Lorca Planes, has come out in defense of the religious symbol.

Though this will almost certainly be dismissed as a ridiculous petition, it is another sign of the hatred for religion in contemporary Spain, reaching levels unseen since the Second Republic. Will Spain die silently or with a bang (as the last Civil War)?..

Neelyann, I think that most of us who frequent this forum would also normally visit Rorate Coeli, New Liturgical Movement, WDTPRS, Wander, Remnant, and similar sites.

I know I do.

Holy martyrs of the Spanish Civil War, ora pro nobis.

Since the death of Franco in 1976 Spain has been redefining itself. Franco saved the catholic church from being pretty much being destroyed by communism. However, he himself as a dictator created another kind of totalitarian state, complete with the death penalty, and widespread torture. We really do need to pray that Spain will preserve her rich Catholic, Islamic and Sephardic history in spite of the crimes Franco’s regime.

Is there any chance of moving the statue to another site, like a hill without an old castle on it?

Yes, the Franco regime was a criminal enterprise.

The church would have survived though, the republican regime could not have destroyed it. The church does not need the support of Fascist dictators to spread the saving message of Christ. In fact it might be better off without a repressive totalitarian police state sponsoring it.

As for Spain as a nation (whether a republic or a dictatorship) it is pretty much an artificial construct. Despite it’s long history as one unified state and empire (since Charles V, apparently), it can be argued that Spain should be three countries, not one. Like Czechoslovakia, Great Britain (when it included Eire) and Yugoslavia it may be better off with the Catalonian, Basque and Castilian people erecting new independent governments.

Taking a clue from the Slovaks and Czechs, doing this by shaking hands amicably and is preferable to a bloody and senseless war.

What did you expect from a country that legalizes incest ?

                             El Caudillo we miss you.

It DOES?!! :eek:

And Portugal recently legalized abortion. :frowning:

That’s certainly what the Communists would like you to believe. In fact the Republicans killed almost 7,000 clergy and religious including 13 bishops. Churches were burned or confiscated and Catholic practice was outlawed.

Then the Nationalists, led by General Franco, saved the rest of the Spanish Catholics from the murder and torture the anarchists and the cronies of Joseph Stalin had in store for them.

Franco and his men were Catholics. The Republicans were murdering atheist tyrants. Franco’s Spain had the death penalty… so what? So has practically every nation, including Catholic ones, in history. So did the Hebrews… because the Bible told them too. Franco having the death penalty somehow makes him a criminal, but the atheist Communists and anarchists indiscriminately mass murdering Catholics is just fine?

Sure, it would have probably been objectively better if Catholic Spain did not have the death penalty. But the fact that it did does not make it a “criminal” regime.

Here it is,2933,510016,00.html

No, I don’t think so.

I take my position on Christ.

I will not dispute your facts, because I have no idea whatsoever of the numbers of deaths involved either way.

I do know that anti-clericalism has reared it’s ugly head in many places across the Christian world. It adds fuel to revolutionary zeal, any kind of revolutionary movement. But it can usually be traced to an abusive situation between the clergy and the people which existed prior to the outbreak.

France, the “daughter of the Church” went through this same kind of tragedy. So too, did Mexico. It is always sad and I do not condone it.

I encourage you to post any credible information about the events of the time (the numbers of priests and bishops murdered, etc.). I myself would like to know more.

But my position is clear: nothing could have destroyed the church then or now, except possibly indifference.

It is not encouraging at all to see Catholics extolling Fascism as a solution to social problems. We can’t control society by pointing a gun at the back of each person’s head. They have to want to be good Christians, the job of the church (that means it’s our job) is to bring the message to the community, and hopefully convert it.

Fascism is clearly the last resort of a failing society, and it is always a bankrupt policy.

What the culture needs is conversion, not a police state.

Thank you for that.

But if you read the article carefully, you will see that it is referring to incest between consenting adults.

And it also comments that several areas in the US don’t bring criminal prosecutions in such cases either, even though there is a law against it.

To say that ‘Spain has legalised incest’ without making clear that this refers only to between consenting adults is misleading to the point of untruth, don’t you think?

Anyone seeing the word ‘incest’ is bound to imagine cases involving children.

Nature abhors a vacuum, and you may be sure that what will take the place of Spain’s Catholic heritage will not be pretty. I wouldn’t be surprised if Communism makes a comeback in that country.
Most Spanish are against their government attempting to pass pro-abortion legislation. How that will be handled depends on King Juan Carlos. If he signs the bill into law, then you will know that the Church in Spain is truly ‘dead’.

Who said anything about Fascism? The Movimiento Nacional was not fascist, and the FET y de las JONS was not a fascist party. It was traditionalist.

Fascism is revolutionary, secular and socialist. Franco’s Spain was none of these things: it was a confessing Catholic state which clung to tradition and family values.

As far as having guns… every country has them. And when the Communists have guns and are killing all the priests and bishops and religious, and burning and confiscating churches and destroying the social fabric… there’s a possibility that it would be a good idea to use those guns before the entire nation disintegrates into a seething cesspit of evil.

Saying that Franco and his movement were not Fascist is a matter of opinion, and (for what little it’s worth) one which I do not share. And, for that matter, over the years, I’ve known more than a few Spaniards, Catalans, and Basques who don’t either. To my eye, any such contention borders on (to say the least) the revisionist.

Revisionism has been the international effort of Communism ever since the loyal sons of the Church marched into Madrid.

The Communists, Socialists and Anarchists showed there true Satanic nature in Spain. If Franco hadn’t overthrown the Popular Front government, the reds might well have burned every Catholic Church in Spain. Spain didn’t need a peace treaty to be followed by so called free elections so Marxists could return to burning, pillaging and terrorizing the Catholic populace. Franco dealt with Communism the way you deal with cancer, and the leftist mobs who were rampaging across the country were indeed a cancer.

Not to mention the international effort of Fascism as well.

I’ve tried to find the truth about Franco for a while, but there exists a kind of leftist-urbanite myth about him in popular culture and academia, and I’ve never been able to find anything that defends him. I do know he did do a lot of good things in defense of the Church in Spain at one of its darkest times. Whether he was a good or bad guy, I reserve judgement because I haven’t heard both sides of the argument.

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