The devil as an angel of music?


#1

I have heard quite a few things from Evangelicals that satan was the minister of music in Heaven, he is the angel of music. Is this true?

I have also heard that satan was an actual instrument and is the embodiment of a few instruments:

So I’m asking for what Catholic tradition believes about this.

Does satan take the form of musical instruments?..and if he does…which ones?

…I know that the timbrel/tambourine was mentioned about him in the bible…is it dangerous to use a timbrel/tambourine or any other instrument mentioned in that context about the devil?

Is this a real theology or is this just some erroneous personal interpretation of the bible?


#2

:popcorn:


#3

I have never heard Satan described as the angel of music. Ask them for chapter and verse. :smiley:
Tambourines, bells and cymbals are mentioned - also trumpets and the harp. In fact, Revelations has harps and trumpets in heaven…

But would be interested in the replies of others.

My own personal view is that instruments are inanimate objects and therefore are neutral in and of themselves.
Any instrument can make music to the glory of God - or to the glory of the evil one.

For this reason, I would not think Satan takes the form of an inanimate object - subject to the will and action of whoever plays it.
Rather, Satan and his minions would prefer to simply “whisper in our ear” and encourage us to listen to ideas and music that is not wholesome. That is where he gets his jollies.


#4

Never heard of that one - in many pre-Christian cultures it was common to beklieve that a certain diety embodied or partly embodied an instrument - most common example being the harp in Celtic culture.

Perhaps that story/tradition about Satan embodying an instrument (particularly one used in religious ceremonies) may be a carryover from pre-Christian days (?).

I would also think that if that were the case, his name would not be Lucifer, “light bearer” - doesn’t really conote with music.


#5

No, but I think he invented Rap music.

Glenda


#6

I remember this from my days as a protester. Seems it was said he could make music come out of himself or something like that. I’ll look into more and report back what I find.


#7

This **TOTALLY EXPLAINS **why Post-Vatican II Liturgical Folk Music is so bad!!! :smiley:


#8
  1. Liturgical worship is given a more noble form when it is celebrated in song, with the ministers of each degree fulfilling their ministry and the people participating in it.

Indeed, through this form, prayer is expressed in a more attractive way, the mystery of the liturgy, with its hierarchical and community nature, is more openly shown, the unity of hearts is more profoundly achieved by the union of voices, minds are more easily raised to heavenly things by the beauty of the sacred rites, and the whole celebration more clearly prefigures that heavenly liturgy which is enacted in the holy city of Jerusalem.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_instr_19670305_musicam-sacram_en.html


#9

:yup:


#10

We know Jesus sang. So I have hard time believing he was imitating the devil.

*“And a hymn being said, they went out unto mount Olivet.” *
Mt 26:30


#11

Are you sure they weren’t talking about Phantom of the Opera? That’s the only place I’ve heard about an “angel of music.”

The Church and different Christian communities/denominations have had various different disciplines about the use of music in formal liturgical worship, but in general Christianity has felt that music is positive (although it can be misused). So does Judaism think music is good. Music is something associated with the good angels and with the harmony of holy people singing the psalms and spiritual songs together.

Mohammed, OTOH, taught that all singing and instrumental music is wicked and hated by Allah, and that it should be stamped out, and that the ancient Arabian prohibitions against killing poets and musicians should be set aside violently (mostly by killing poets and poetesses who dared to criticize Mohammed). However, Middle Eastern culture in favor of music and poetry is so strong that it takes a real fanatic (like the ISIS people) to try to enforce this. (And even then, you see some militant groups trying to put out pop songs about how glorious they are.)

So yeah, I’d be very worried about any group saying that Satan rules all music. In fact, I’m so worried that I’m going to do a little delving into the search engines to see what the heck some folks are thinking.


#12

Oh my. I found the theological idea. And I haven’t seen a Bible interpretation this cranky since the bit about “the horseleech’s daughter” being a vampire instead of a vamping bad girl.

In Ezekiel 28, Ezekiel prophecies to the kings of Tyre and Sidon about their approaching doom. The way Ezekiel talks about the beautiful city of Tyre (one of the richest cities in the world, thanks to a great harbor, Phoenician traders, and Tyrian purple dye) has been traditionally interpreted as also applying to Satan, because Lucifer was originally the most beautiful of angels the way Tyre was the most beautiful of cities. (And there are other lines about enemy pagan kings and cities that are also applied to Satan as the Enemy.) The general idea is that Ezekiel is harking back to how splendid the king of Tyre looked at his coronation, among his royal gardens and in his beautiful city.

So here’s how Ezekiel 28:13 goes in the old Douay-Rheims-Challoner:

“Thou wast in the pleasures of the paradise of God: every precious stone was thy covering: the sardius, the topaz, and the jasper, the chrysolite, and the onyx, and the beryl, the sapphire, and the carbuncle, and the emerald: gold the work of thy beauty: and thy pipes were prepared in the day that thou wast created.

The word translated as “pipes” here is “foramina” (holes) in Latin. I don’t know what the Fathers thought it meant. Possibly a jewelry thing.

Here’s an old literal translation of the Septuagint version of Ezekiel 28:13 –

“Thou wast in the delight of the paradise of God; thou hast bound upon thee every precious stone, the sardius, and topaz, and emerald, and carbuncle, and sapphire, and jasper, and silver, and gold, and ligure, and agate, and amethyst, and chrysolite, and beryl, and onyx: and thou hast filled thy treasures and thy stores in thee with gold.

This basically thinks the “holes” are treasure bins and storage pits.

But here’s the King James Version of Ezekiel 28:13 –

"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created."

Scholars today think that the Hebrew word “tuppeka” meant “settings” for the jewels, and that the “holes” were sockets to put the jewels into. But the King James Version translators thought that tuppeka were “tabrets,” small tabor drums, and that the holes were pipes as musical instruments. All this should just mean that the city of Tyre is sumptuous, either way.

But some people apparently took it to mean that Lucifer played pipes and tabor drums, and that maybe the pipes and tabor drums were actually installed INSIDE Lucifer, and yet that somehow something “prepared in thee on the day that thou wast created” must have become something evil instead of being a good gift from God.

Not really seeing this.

Anyway, here’s a modern translation from the NIV:

“You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: carnelian, chrysolite and emerald, topaz, onyx and jasper, lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared.

Also, there is a traditional “angel of music” name, but it’s “Sandalphon.”


#13

Hello Mitaka.

QUOTE=Mintaka;12620785]Oh my. I found the theological idea. And I haven’t seen a Bible interpretation this cranky since the bit about “the horseleech’s daughter” being a vampire instead of a vamping bad girl.

In Ezekiel 28, Ezekiel prophecies to the kings of Tyre and Sidon about their approaching doom. The way Ezekiel talks about the beautiful city of Tyre (one of the richest cities in the world, thanks to a great harbor, Phoenician traders, and Tyrian purple dye) has been traditionally interpreted as also applying to Satan, because Lucifer was originally the most beautiful of angels the way Tyre was the most beautiful of cities. (And there are other lines about enemy pagan kings and cities that are also applied to Satan as the Enemy.) The general idea is that Ezekiel is harking back to how splendid the king of Tyre looked at his coronation, among his royal gardens and in his beautiful city.

So here’s how Ezekiel 28:13 goes in the old Douay-Rheims-Challoner:

“Thou wast in the pleasures of the paradise of God: every precious stone was thy covering: the sardius, the topaz, and the jasper, the chrysolite, and the onyx, and the beryl, the sapphire, and the carbuncle, and the emerald: gold the work of thy beauty: and thy pipes were prepared in the day that thou wast created.

The word translated as “pipes” here is “foramina” (holes) in Latin. I don’t know what the Fathers thought it meant. Possibly a jewelry thing.

Here’s an old literal translation of the Septuagint version of Ezekiel 28:13 –

“Thou wast in the delight of the paradise of God; thou hast bound upon thee every precious stone, the sardius, and topaz, and emerald, and carbuncle, and sapphire, and jasper, and silver, and gold, and ligure, and agate, and amethyst, and chrysolite, and beryl, and onyx: and thou hast filled thy treasures and thy stores in thee with gold.

This basically thinks the “holes” are treasure bins and storage pits.

But here’s the King James Version of Ezekiel 28:13 –

"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created."

Scholars today think that the Hebrew word “tuppeka” meant “settings” for the jewels, and that the “holes” were sockets to put the jewels into. But the King James Version translators thought that tuppeka were “tabrets,” small tabor drums, and that the holes were pipes as musical instruments. All this should just mean that the city of Tyre is sumptuous, either way.

But some people apparently took it to mean that Lucifer played pipes and tabor drums, and that maybe the pipes and tabor drums were actually installed INSIDE Lucifer, and yet that somehow something “prepared in thee on the day that thou wast created” must have become something evil instead of being a good gift from God.

Not really seeing this.

Anyway, here’s a modern translation from the NIV:

“You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: carnelian, chrysolite and emerald, topaz, onyx and jasper, lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared.

Also, there is a traditional “angel of music” name, but it’s “Sandalphon.”

Very good job! :clapping: Thorough and convincing. Go team!

I still say his version of music is rap.

Glenda


#14

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