The Disciples - Sincerity - And Islam

Are you willing to accept then that your perspective could be wrong, considering that you have absolutely no idea what the true story is of the early Disciples of Jesus based on history?

Or would you say that because the Qur’an must be correct, then any history that claims Peter was meant to build a Church for Jesus must be false, under all circumstances; no matter what?

I’m glad that you’re not asserting that, because I think you’re logical enough to know how wrong it would be to ignore all history. We certainly know that guys like Peter, John, James, Jude, Paul, etc planted Church’s and we know guys like Irenaeus, Polycarp, Ignatius, Clement, etc succeeded them.

No matter what one wants to believe about Jesus, they must believe that Peter, James, John, etc believed Jesus died and rose again. The earliest Church’s knew this and believed this and yet you deny it.

However, I wouldn’t say it’s your fault because as you say; you have not really had a chance to study the history of the Early Church, and that’s why you’re here. I believe that’s certainly a step in the right direction as long as you don’t insist on denying everything that is contradictory to the Qur’an under any circumstances; because that I believe would be a waste of time for you and intellectually dishonest.

I have thought about quoting passage after passage about the abuse Paul gave, and then the abuse he was given after conversion. How in both The Acts and in Paul’s letters he proves this, and then sends letters, as well as other Apostles of Jesus to other Church’s all confirming His death, resurrection and ascension. How the Apostles had nothing to gain by proving that Jesus Christ died and rose again, other than eternal Salvation; but it’s hard when I’m not sure where you’re at.

I didn’t think originally it would make sense to write an essay for you, but then I think of other Muslims who may stumble about here one day and have an open mind to such beliefs. That’s not to say that you don’t have an open mind, I just have not seen that yet.

Hm, I once made a thread about him because I know of some of the hateful things he would say; which if Muslims were to be influenced by him now would be bad news. No Muslims were around to reply though so it died.

So here’s my little bit on this topic of early Christianity and the Disciples. I think it’s important when Christians have discussions with Muslims and they get confused why such a Muslim person is not really interested in what Christians say about history, the reason is because they look into the Qur’ans claims about the Disciples:

*Surah 3:52 but when Jesus felt persistence in disbelief from them he said, “who are my supporters for the cause of Allah?” The disciples said, "we are supporters for Allah. We have believed in Allah and testify that we are Muslims.

Surah 5:111 And remember when I inspired to the disciples, “believe in me and my messenger Jesus.” They said, “we have believed, so bear witness that indeed we are Muslims.”*

Now, most Muslims won’t know the names of the Disciples but the ones who admit that perhaps Allah was speaking of the more popular names, ie: Peter, James, John; then it would serve to reason that Peter never wrote 1 and 2 Peter, James never wrote “James” and John never wrote 1, 2, 3 John, the Gospel of John or the Revelation of John. Nor could Peter have helped Mark write his Gospel, nor could Matthew have written Matthew.

It would also serve to reason that The Acts is a complete corruption, even though it was written by the same person who wrote Luke; which records Jesus’s death, Resurrection and Ascension, three things that Muslims deny. And that works perfectly of course, because Luke was very good friends with Paul, and Paul quotes the Gospel of Luke:
*
Luke 10:7 And remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide,** for the laborer deserves his wages. Do not go from house to house.**

1 Timothy 5:18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and,* “The laborer deserves his wages.”***

Paul, of course mentions both Mark and Luke who wrote two of the Gospels in one passage, again affirming his friendship with them; which was never a question anyways. Keep in mind that these “Disciples” of Jesus likely would have called Paul a liar had they known the true Disciples such as Luke, Peter, etc… But I digress:

2 Timothy 4:11 Luke alone is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you, for he is very useful to me for ministry.

Paul of course wrote such while in prison, which is a great segway for my next point; Paul was either out of his mind or telling the truth. Paul bears witness in Galatians 1 as to what the people used to say about him:

Galatians 1:13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers….

Galatians 1:22 And I was still unknown in person to the churches of Judea that are in Christ 23 They only were hearing it said, “He who used to persecute us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.”

This is also explained in The Acts.
*The Acts 9: 20 At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God. 21 All those who heard him were astonished and asked, “Isn’t he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name? And hasn’t he come here to take them as prisoners to the chief priests?” 22 Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah. *

This type of character would be extremely strange for a Jew. One must ask why such a Pharisee such as Paul would abandon everything, all riches, all glory, all power, to humble himself even to death. One would only have to conclude that he was out of his mind… And some did:

*Acts 26: 24 At this point Festus interrupted Paul’s defense. “You are out of your mind, Paul!” he shouted. “Your great learning is driving you insane.”

25 “I am not insane, most excellent Festus,” Paul replied. “What I am saying is true and reasonable. 26 The king is familiar with these things, and I can speak freely to him. I am convinced that none of this has escaped his notice, because it was not done in a corner. 27 King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know you do.”

28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, “Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?”*

29 Paul replied, “Short time or long—I pray to God that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am, except for these chains.”
And thus, I enter my next point. Christianity.*

Let’s take a look at the Qur’an:
Surah 61:14 O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah, as when Jesus, the son of Mary said to the disciples, “Who are my supporters for Allah?” The disciples said, “We are supporters of Allah.” And a faction of the children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved.* So we supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant.***

One should generally assume by such a passage that Islam, or some type of Muslim sect became dominant. One should also reasonably conclude based on Surah 61:14 that the Disciples were not only Muslims, but they were winning. Now, we just looked at a passage where Festus asked Paul if he was trying to convert him, and Paul certainly wanted Festus to become a, “Christian.” Let’s see where else we find this name:
Acts 11: 25 Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, 26 and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people.* The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.***

Or from Peter’s letter himself:
1 Peter 4:16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.

Josephus, the first century Jewish historian says himself: “And the tribe of Christians has not yet since disappeared” after speaking of Jesus being sentenced to crucifixion.

Tacitus states" Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome"

So obviously a group called “Christians” believed in the death of a man named Jesus; something Muslims deny. In fact, the Qur’an says the group of Disciples simply called themselves “Muslims” or perhaps some Hebrew variation of “slave of Allah” and assuming Islam is true, they would have preached that Jesus was saved from such a cross. No history records this, but it must be true if the Qur’an is true. However, since no history records this we must throw out Surah 61:14 because it could not be reasonably true that Muslim Disciples became dominant.

Paul also testified quite frequently of his persecution at the hands of others, but he cared most for his God and His Church:

2 Corin 11: 24 Five times I received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I was adrift at sea; 26 on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brothers; 27 in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food,* in cold and exposure. 28 And, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure on me of my anxiety for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to fall, and I am not indignant?

30 If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.**

and

*1 Corin 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

and

1 Thess 2: 3 For our appeal does not spring from error or impurity or any attempt to deceive, 4 but just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not to please man, but to please God who tests our hearts. 5 For we never came with words of flattery,** as you know, nor with a pretext for greed—God is witness. 6 Nor did we seek glory from people, whether from you or from others, though we could have made demands as apostles of Christ. 7 But we were gentle[c] among you, like a nursing mother taking care of her own children. 8 So, being affectionately desirous of you, we were ready to share with you not only the gospel of God but also our own selves, because you had become very dear to us.

9 For you remember, brothers, our labor and toil: we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, while we proclaimed to you the gospel of God. 10 You are witnesses, and God also, how holy and righteous and blameless was our conduct toward you believers. 11 For you know how, like a father with his children, 12 we exhorted each one of you and encouraged you and charged you to walk in a manner worthy of God, who calls you into his own kingdom and glory.****

My final point is that according to the Qur’an it is impossible that God ever claimed to have a Son, and yet the Bible is obviously clear on this point. Let’s look at what Peter had to say about this:

2 Peter 1: 16For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
First I want to point out the sincerity in what he said there… But the most important part comes next:

17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased*,” 18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the** holy mountain.**

Contrast Peter’s testimony with the Synoptic Gospels:

Matthew 17:1 And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. 3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. 4 And Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.” 5 He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son,[a] with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.” 6 When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were terrified. 7 But Jesus came and touched them, saying, “Rise, and have no fear.” 8 And when they lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only.

Mark 9:2 And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, 3 and his clothes became radiant, intensely white, as no one[a] on earth could bleach them. 4 And there appeared to them Elijah with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus. 5 And Peter said to Jesus, “Rabbi,** it is good that we are here. Let us make three tents, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.” 6 For he did not know what to say, for they were terrified. 7 And a cloud overshadowed them, and a voice came out of the cloud, “This is my beloved Son;[c] listen to him.”** 8 And suddenly, looking around, they no longer saw anyone with them but Jesus only.

Luke 9: 28 Now about eight days after these sayings he took with him Peter and John and James and went** up on the mountain to pray. 29 And as he was praying, the appearance of his face was altered, and his clothing became dazzling white. 30 And behold, two men were talking with him, Moses and Elijah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 Now Peter and those who were with him were heavy with sleep, but when they became fully awake they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him. 33 And as the men were parting from him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good that we are here. Let us make three tents, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah”—not knowing what he said. 34 As he was saying these things, a cloud came and overshadowed them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. 35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, my Chosen One;[c] listen to him!”**

Therefore, a story that is attested to in Matthew, Mark, Luke and by Peter himself must be denied by Muslims; as Allah would have never claimed to “have a Son.”

Thanks for reading every word if you took the time. I’ll leave with a passage from James that I love where he appeals his sincerity.

1 James 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard,* which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands,*** concerning the word of life— 2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And we are writing these things so that our[a] joy may be complete.*

Dronald,

If the Quran records Jesus and others talking about being Muslims, do Muslims have a reason why there is no other recordings of the word Muslim between that time and Mohammed? Or are there?

Dronald, what is this thread about :confused:, what is your question/concern?

I do not see the “name” itself being a problem at all.

The BIG fundamental problem is denying the crucifixion.

“Muslim” simply means those who submit their personal will to God’s will.

…and the denial of the crucifixion is a fundamental misunderstanding of that relevant passage in the Quran by the Muslim community. (in my humble opinion)

To deny Jesus died is to deny all of the Muslim martyrs throughout history.

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The most common answer one will receive from a Muslim is that these men defined themselves as, “One who submits to God” or a “slave of God.” However, the disciples, being Jewish certainly would not have called God “Allah.” Which is interesting considering how obsessed they are with using the Arabic term.

As a noun that others would define a Muslim as? Absolutely not. No Jew would look at the Disciples of Jesus or Jesus Himself and say “There’s a Muslim” or “There’s a one who submits to Allah.”

Assuming that Jesus really did come to teach that he’s a Prophet leading just another group of those who submit to Allah, while being Jewish… i’m not sure what the Jews would have had against that. I suppose one can theorize but there’s nothing in history.

Hey Sam, I often pray for your situation.

It’s showing the flaw in the Qur’an regarding the Disciples, the sincerity in their conduct in the Bible, etc.

Hi dronald :slight_smile:

I wonder if a perspective that might be considered when trying to understand this passage from the Quran is one where Revelation is centred around the capacities and methodologies of understanding spiritual Truths, of the people to whom the Revelation is addressing?

For example, when you are talking to a group of gangsters on the street corner, you would approach evangelization and teaching of this group in a different way and using a different language as when you are, for example, evangelizing and teaching a group of Jews.

The Revelation of God is not altogether foreign to the population it is born into. It is the “Living” Word of God and is able to be adapted to advance a population from the depths of evil, unrighteousness and self-destruction, and when the spiritual Truths it contains are absorbed into the spirits of men, then it can transform and the men are “born again”. When this takes place the victories of Gods Word are self-evident, and it will forever “dominate” the misunderstandings of the heedless, the evil-whisperers and the power-hungry, greedy and ignorant.

Is this a perspective that can be explored at all?

:slight_smile:

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With all love and respect Servant19, unless you want to discuss this from an “Islam is true and Christianity is false” perspective then I don’t want to derail this by making it another Christian/Baha’i thread.

I do appreciate the Baha’i here, as they make for intricate discussions, but I’m more interested in Islam for this topic.

The difference between yourself and Muslims is that Muslims force themselves to deny the New Testament, while you accept the NT, the Qur’an and some extra revelations. If you’d like to make a topic for Baha’i, I think that can always be beneficial.

No problems my friend :thumbsup:

:slight_smile:

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The problem that it’s literally written in Quran!
Unless the Bahai sect believes that the Quran is corrupted:shrug:.

I see no problem with that principles, we all submit to GOD, and we all children of GOD and we are not ashamed even if someone calls us slaves of GOD because we know how much GOD loves us. :slight_smile:

However, the disciples, being Jewish certainly would not have called God “Allah.” Which is interesting considering how obsessed they are with using the Arabic term.

The Arabic Jews in the Arabian Peninsula called Him by that Arabic name, and Muhammed took that from them.

No Jew would look at the Disciples of Jesus or Jesus Himself and say “There’s a Muslim” or “There’s a one who submits to Allah.”

That Islam/Muslim word is purely an Arabic term, so it’s irrelevant to use it outside Arabian Peninsula during that time period.

Assuming that Jesus really did come to teach that he’s a Prophet leading just another group of those who submit to Allah, while being Jewish… i’m not sure what the Jews would have had against that.

A good point…

Sure, but as a specific title that separates “Us from them” as Muslims have today is what I’m getting at.

For example, by title then, every Jew, Christian and Muslim is “Muslim” by definition of the word and yet Muslims don’t call us Muslims. Jewish people throughout all history did not define themselves by the noun “Muslim” although they may have claimed to submit to God.

But the Disciples certainly would not have called God by His Arabic name. That’s why I find it odd that all Muslims must say “Allah” when referring to God, even though Jesus most certainly never called God “Allah.” Nor Moses, nor Elijah, nor Isaiah, all the way throughout Jewish history to now.

Yes, no problem with that, all the words lead to the monotheistic.

and yet Muslims don’t call us Muslims.

Because they don’t understand past religions.

Muslims must say “Allah” when referring to God,

My personal “extreme believes” sometime (and I will not be surprised if that turns to be true on the judgment day) has something to do with “Isaiah 14:12-14”, but again most Muslims believe they are worshiping GOD and that what the true GOD care about despite the difference in names, no more on this particular topic because it will derail the thread.

My friend, Baha’is never would say that the Quran is corrupted :slight_smile:

The problem is that it also “literally” states in the Quran that the martyrs never died when they were martyred.

“Think not of those who are slain in Allah’s way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord”

Maybe in the Quran the references to death/crucifixion do not relate to physical death of the body, but rather that the TRUE REALITY of the individual lives on eternally.

As the celebrated Islamic mystic, Jami, stated:

“The unique Substance, viewed as absolute and void of all phenomena, all limitations and all multiplicity, is the Real (al-Haqq). On the other hand, viewed in His aspect of multiplicity and
plurality, under which He displays Himself when clothed with phenomena, He is the whole created universe. Therefore** the universe is the outward visible expression of the Real**, and the Real is the inner unseen reality of the universe. The universe before it was evolved to outward view was identical with the Real; and the Real after this evolution is identical with the universe.”

Physical death/crucifixion is not REAL death at all…whether its the martyrs or Jesus Christ.

:slight_smile:

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OK accepted, but the martyred who “die for what they believe” not “killing others for what they believe:wink:

Maybe in the Quran the references to death/crucifixion do not relate to physical death of the body, but rather that the TRUE REALITY of the individual lives on eternally.

As usual, Muslims will try to find a workaround or excuse for that huge historical mistake in Quran “literally denying the crucifixion”, even that word in Arabic does not need any commentary from anyone to understand it, and even if your theory is right, the books of Hadith should have mentioned that historical moment not to mention the “Resurrection” which is even more important than the crucifixion, yet both Quran & Hadith are silent on it.

Sorry fellow, but Quran is full of historical mistakes, and crucifixion is not the only one.

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