The Divine Liturgy


#1

I have noticed that Roman Catholics are intrigued by the Byzantine Catholic Church liturgy known as The Divine Liturgy. Some people have experienced the Liturgy and some have not, and some have no idea what the Divine Liturgy is.

So I pose the question:
Have you ever attended a Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgy (i.e. the Mass)?


#2

After returning back to my baptismal rite, I prefer the the Divine Liturgy.

I still have my appreciation of the Roman Mass after 37 years, but like a prodigal son, I have returned ‘home’.

One regret, I hadn’t experienced a Latin Mass in those 37 years. My brother is a Roman Rite priest, I am sure I will get that chance.

Go with God!
Edwin


#3

I attended the Divine Liturgy at Our Lady of Wisdom here in Las Vegas. It was beautiful. The only Rite different from the Latin Rite that we have here is Byzantine Catholic. As a result, all the other Eastern Rites either go there or the Latin Rite. Because of this, I got to hear a woman sing a beautiful passage/song/antiphon during communion in Arabic or Aramaic or Lebanese or something, I forget what. It was bone wrenchingly beautiful, absolutely haunting. That said, the whole service brought home the fact that I’m really kind of austere in aesthetics and I prefer the Latin Rite (Mass of Paul VI). The Byzantine Catholic made our service look like a Quaker meeting! But I’m glad I went and got to know some more Catholic kindred a little better.


#4

I never went to one (Divine Liturgy). When I was visiting Quebec City, there was a Ukrainian Catholic Church near our hotel. I wasn’t sure what that was, so I didn’t go to church there. Is that a branch of Eastern Orthodox?
When I learned a little about Orthodox Church, I was curious to go to a Divine Liturgy someday to see what it was like, and if it was very similar or different from Mass. I’m kind of under the impression that Roman Catholics aren’t supposed to attend, according to Eastern Orthodox rules. I wouldn’t want to be disrespectful to their wishes.


#5

[quote=lovelavender]I never went to one (Divine Liturgy). When I was visiting Quebec City, there was a Ukrainian Catholic Church near our hotel. I wasn’t sure what that was, so I didn’t go to church there. Is that a branch of Eastern Orthodox?
When I learned a little about Orthodox Church, I was curious to go to a Divine Liturgy someday to see what it was like, and if it was very similar or different from Mass. I’m kind of under the impression that Roman Catholics aren’t supposed to attend, according to Eastern Orthodox rules. I wouldn’t want to be disrespectful to their wishes.
[/quote]

In general, Roman Catholics are welcome to attend Orthodox liturgies, but they may not take communion.

The Ukrainian Catholic Church is in communion with Rome and is part of the Byzantine Rite (one of 14 Churches that make up that Rite). Any Catholic may receive the sacraments at any Catholic Church, Eastern or Western.

Deacon Ed


#6

It depends which liturgy your are talking about. The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is a wonderful gift, but I still prefer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

The Liturgy of St. Basil is far longer than that of St. John Chrysostom, and can become tiring, but it too is a great gift from God. The Divine Liturgy of St. James is also wonderful.

While I prefer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, I still attend the Divine Liturgy at least once a month – or I hear about it from the pastor of “my” eastern parish.

If I got as much out of the Divine Liturgy as I do from the Mass, I would simply change for being a Roman Catholic to being a Ruthenian (“Byzantine”) Catholic, and I would never have to worry about liturgical abuse again…


#7

If I got as much out of the Divine Liturgy as I do from the Mass, I would simply change for being a Roman Catholic to being a Ruthenian (“Byzantine”) Catholic, and I would never have to worry about liturgical abuse again…

First off, “Holy Sacrifice of the Mass” is not a specific title for the Roman Mass; it’s simply a title for the Holy Sacrifice using typical Roman terminology.

Ditto for Byzantines and the “Divine Liturgy.” Although the phrase is Byzantine, it applies just as well to the Roman Mass.

The “Divine Liturgy” and the “Holy Sacrifice of the Mass” are one and the same thing. If you want to go into specifics, I think it’s proper to speak of Rites (Roman Rite, Byzantine Rite, Armenian Rite, etc.)

Of course, the Catholic communions themselves are called “Churches,” not “Rites.” Rite is a form of worship, Church the communion one belongs to.

That having been said, the Byzantines in this county have their fair share of abuses. Perhaps most of them are heavily Latinized, and their Liturgies are a living joke to any Orthodox (or Oriental Orthodox, or “Nestorian”) who goes and witnesses them. There are many notable exceptions, but they have yet to become norm.

It’s their abusive way of celebrating the Divine Liturgy that is such a stumbling block to many Orthodox today.


#8

[quote=DominvsVobiscvm]First off, “Holy Sacrifice of the Mass” is not a specific title for the Roman Mass; it’s simply a title for the Holy Sacrifice using typical Roman terminology.

Ditto for Byzantines and the “Divine Liturgy.” Although the phrase is Byzantine, it applies just as well to the Roman Mass.

The “Divine Liturgy” and the “Holy Sacrifice of the Mass” are one and the same thing. If you want to go into specifics, I think it’s proper to speak of Rites (Roman Rite, Byzantine Rite, Armenian Rite, etc.)

Of course, the Catholic communions themselves are called “Churches,” not “Rites.” Rite is a form of worship, Church the communion one belongs to.

That having been said, the Byzantines in this county have their fair share of abuses. Perhaps most of them are heavily Latinized, and their Liturgies are a living joke to any Orthodox (or Oriental Orthodox, or “Nestorian”) who goes and witnesses them. There are many notable exceptions, but they have yet to become norm.

It’s their abusive way of celebrating the Divine Liturgy that is such a stumbling block to many Orthodox today.
[/quote]

You are very sadly mistaken.

Holy Sacrifice of the Mass most certainly is a specific title for what you term the “Roman Mass.”

Second, the Liturgies of Sts. John Chrysostom, Basil and others are most certainly termed the Divine Liturgy of

You comments about churches/rites seem oddly out of place, and certainly they are uneeded.

There are no liturgical abuses in the Ruthenian Catholic parish I frequent. None.

This is not 1955 – “Latinization” is quite UNcommon today in ALL the Eastern Catholic Churches. To suggest that Eastern/Oritental Orthodox Liturgies are any “purer” than Eastern Catholic liturgies is to live in the past. The very distant past.


#9

Holy Sacrifice of the Mass most certainly is a specific title for what you term the “Roman Mass.”

Documentation, please? Although I’ve only heard this phrase used by Latin Catholics, I’ve never heard it “contrasted” with the Divine Liturgy, as if the two were two ontologically different things.

While the Roman Rite is more often referred to as “Mass.” I’ve never hears or read any source contrasting a “Mass” with a “Divine Liturgy.” Rather, the various “rites” are contrasted, or the various liturgies (i.e. Roman liturgy vs. Byzantine liturgy).

In other words, unless the ethnic apellation is added beforehand, it sounds awfully weird to say “I prefer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass over the Divine Liturgy.” I’ve heard things like, “I prefer the Roman Mass over the Byzantine Liturgy” but never the former.

See what I’m saying?

Second, the Liturgies of Sts. John Chrysostom, Basil and others are most certainly termed the Divine Liturgy of

I never denied this. I’m fairly well-read on Eastern Christianity (Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and “Nestorian”).

This is not 1955 – “Latinization” is quite UNcommon today in ALL the Eastern Catholic Churches. To suggest that Eastern/Oritental Orthodox Liturgies are any “purer” than Eastern Catholic liturgies is to live in the past. The very distant past.

You’ve obviously never been to Chicago, or Florida. Or seen a Chaldean or Malabar-Catholic liturgy. These last two almost always celebrate facing the people, and often have altar girls.

You comments about churches/rites seem oddly out of place, and certainly they are uneeded.

Some of the previous posts on this thread seemed to imply a confusion regarding these terms, so I thought I’d nip this in the bud. :slight_smile:


#10

Eric,

As always, when it comes to the Eastern Churches, you manage to irritate in the course of trying to be helpful.

[quote=DominvsVobiscvm]The “Divine Liturgy” and the “Holy Sacrifice of the Mass” are one and the same thing.
[/quote]

The liturgical service offered in the Latin Church is correctly termed “The Mass”; that in the Churches of the Byzantine Rite, “The Divine Liturgy”; that of the Churches utilizing the Antiochan Rite, either “The Holy Qurbana” or “Holy Qurbono”, depending on the liturgucal language of the particular Church; that of the Maronites, "The Service of the Holy Mysteries; that of the Armenians, “Soorp Badarak”; that of the Churches of the Alexandrean Rite, “The Holy Liturgy”.

I never denied this. I’m fairly well-read on Eastern Christianity (Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and “Nestorian”).

Then you should know that the usage “Nestorian” in reference to either the Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East or the Catholicosate of the East/Patriarchate of Baghdad is considered inappropriate and derogatory.

You’ve obviously never been to Chicago, or Florida. Or seen a Chaldean or Malabar-Catholic liturgy. These last two almost always celebrate facing the people, and often have altar girls.

Your original post specifically cited the Churches of the Byzantine Rite as latinized. Neither the Chaldeans nor the Syro-Malabarese Catholic Churches are of the Byzantine Rite.

Comments such as “their Liturgies are a living joke” and “their abusive way of celebrating the Divine Liturgy” are rude, improper, disrespectful, and merit an apology.

Many years,

Neil


#11

[quote=JKirkLVNV]I attended the Divine Liturgy at Our Lady of Wisdom here in Las Vegas. It was beautiful. The only Rite different from the Latin Rite that we have here is Byzantine Catholic. As a result, all the other Eastern Rites either go there or the Latin Rite. Because of this, I got to hear a woman sing a beautiful passage/song/antiphon during communion in Arabic or Aramaic or Lebanese or something, I forget what. It was bone wrenchingly beautiful, absolutely haunting. That said, the whole service brought home the fact that I’m really kind of austere in aesthetics and I prefer the Latin Rite (Mass of Paul VI). The Byzantine Catholic made our service look like a Quaker meeting! But I’m glad I went and got to know some more Catholic kindred a little better.
[/quote]

JKirk,

Although Our Lady of Wisdom is a parish of the Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic Eparchy of Van Nuys, it was generously erected by the Ruthenians to serve LV’s substantial community of Byzantine Italo-Greico-Albanian Catholics, who have no hierarchy of their own in this country and only one other organized community (Our Lady of Grace Society), the latter subject to the Latin Archbishop of New York City.

As Vladyka William, the Eparch of Van Nuys, said of it, the Divine Liturgy there is much more like a Melkite Liturgy than a Ruthenian, as it shares the Byzantine Greek Tradition with the Melkites, rather than using the Byzantine Slav Tradition of its Eparchy.

The language you heard was likely Greek, as the community is significantly more heavily Italo-Greek than Italo-Albanian from what I understand. Alternatively, it may have been Albanian. It would not have been Arabic, used only by the Melkites among the Byzantine Rite Churches, or Aramaic, which is used primarily by the Maronites and Syriacs, neither of which use the Byzantine Rite. (There is not a separate Lebanese language; the Lebanese speak Arabic.)

Many years,

Neil


#12

What an extraordinary poll. No option for simply stating, “Yes, I have attended a Byzantine liturgy.” Why the judgments on liking or disliking? This is pure cafeteria Catholic, soliciting reviews of how the patrons liked the show.

I have attended a Byzantine liturgy, and being a Roman Rite Catholic, only with permission did I receive Communion by intinction (dipping Bread into Wine). This is the last place a church-hopping “rad trad” cultural Catholic needs to shop for smells and bells because Roman Rite Catholics may not receive Communion by intinction without permission.

Because of the stunning gilt architecture and powerful iconography, Byzantine Rite Catholics have long had a tourist problem. Don’t be part of it.


#13

[quote=nordskoven]What an extraordinary poll. No option for simply stating, “Yes, I have attended a Byzantine liturgy.” Why the judgments on liking or disliking? This is pure cafeteria Catholic, soliciting reviews of how the patrons liked the show.

I have attended a Byzantine liturgy, and being a Roman Rite Catholic, only with permission did I receive Communion by intinction (dipping Bread into Wine). This is the last place a church-hopping “rad trad” cultural Catholic needs to shop for smells and bells because Roman Rite Catholics may not receive Communion by intinction without permission.

Because of the stunning gilt architecture and powerful iconography, Byzantine Rite Catholics have long had a tourist problem. Don’t be part of it.
[/quote]

If the polling system had more than 7 suggestions, then your request is granted.
The last choce in the list would most likely fit your desire.


#14

Here is a site that will help you understand how the Eastern Catholilc Churches came to be. Click on the radio, and get a chance to listen to a wonderful presentation by Fr. Tom Loya from Annunication Byzantine Catholic Church in Homer Glen, IL

byzantinecatholic.com/radio.htm

The Eastern Catholic Churches, (that are in existance today) returned to the authority of the Pope of Rome in the 15th and 16th centuries. The Divine Liturgy is the same as the Eastern Othrodox Christian Churches. Yet the main difference between the Eastern Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches is the question of authority. It may sound like a simple problem to solve, sadly it is not.

So attending an Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy (of either St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil, or St. James) is the same as the Orthodox Church, except in our Litany of Supplication we ask for prayers for the Pope of Rome. Eveything else is just about the same.

Roman Catholics CAN receive the partaking of the Divine Nature in Holy Communion at ANY Eastern Catholic Church.

Go with God!
Edwin


#15

[quote=nordskoven] being a Roman Rite Catholic, only with permission did I receive Communion by intinction (dipping Bread into Wine). This is the last place a church-hopping “rad trad” cultural Catholic needs to shop for smells and bells because Roman Rite Catholics may not receive Communion by intinction without permission.
[/quote]

Nordskoven,

I don’t know where you got the idea that a Latin Rite Catholic needs permission to receive the Holy Eucharist by intinction in a Byzantine Catholic Church.

The following are the relevant provisions of Canon Law applicable to those of the Latin Rite:

**Can. 923 Christ’s faithful may participate in the eucharistic Sacrifice and receive holy communion in any catholic rite, without prejudice to the provisions of can. 844.

Can. 925 Holy communion is to be given under the species of bread alone or, in accordance with the liturgical laws, under both species or, in case of necessity, even under the species of wine alone. **

Note the reference in Canon 925 to “liturgical laws”. In the instance of which you speak, the applicable liturgical laws are those of the Church in which you are receiving the Holy Mystery of the Eucharist. Those laws, in Churches of the Byzantine Rites, prescribe that Communion be given under both species and by intinction.

Many years,

Neil


#16

Have attended Greek Orthodox weddings which rites are beautiful catechesis on marriage and its relationship to baptism, Eucharist and the other sacraments;
Russian orthodox Easter vigil (all night long) with the men’s choir, no musical accompaniment, the most stirring sacred music I have ever heard, or will this side of heaven.
Maronite rite liturgy (concelebration) at Our Lady of Lebanon Shrine outside Youngstown, notes said Eucharistic prayer was Syriac, but ritual actions including communion rite similar to Latin Novus Ordo
Byzantine Catholic in Gary, Cleveland and Detroit many times
At any of these celebrations you are left with absolutely no doubt or confusion about the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist, nor of Liturgy on earth being the mirror of that in heaven.

If resolution of the schism between Orthodox and Catholic requires return to eastern rites for Divine Liturgy it would be a wonderful, rejuvenating thing for the Church.


#17

I took my 6 year old son to a Byzantine Divine Liturgy about a month ago. He LOVED it.

In fact, he keeps asking to go there again and again.

(He also loved the TLM I took him too, but didn’t really care for the Caldean Divine Liturgy we went to)


#18

[quote=nordskoven]What an extraordinary poll. No option for simply stating, “Yes, I have attended a Byzantine liturgy.” Why the judgments on liking or disliking? This is pure cafeteria Catholic, soliciting reviews of how the patrons liked the show.

I have attended a Byzantine liturgy, and being a Roman Rite Catholic, only with permission did I receive Communion by intinction (dipping Bread into Wine). This is the last place a church-hopping “rad trad” cultural Catholic needs to shop for smells and bells because Roman Rite Catholics may not receive Communion by intinction without permission.

Because of the stunning gilt architecture and powerful iconography, Byzantine Rite Catholics have long had a tourist problem. Don’t be part of it.
[/quote]

Sheesh, since when does a Catholic need permission from someone to receive the Eucharist in a Catholic Church!! Also who gave you this permission?


#19

[quote=Irish Melkite]JKirk,

Although Our Lady of Wisdom is a parish of the Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic Eparchy of Van Nuys, it was generously erected by the Ruthenians to serve LV’s substantial community of Byzantine Italo-Greico-Albanian Catholics, who have no hierarchy of their own in this country and only one other organized community (Our Lady of Grace Society), the latter subject to the Latin Archbishop of New York City.

As Vladyka William, the Eparch of Van Nuys, said of it, the Divine Liturgy there is much more like a Melkite Liturgy than a Ruthenian, as it shares the Byzantine Greek Tradition with the Melkites, rather than using the Byzantine Slav Tradition of its Eparchy.

The language you heard was likely Greek, as the community is significantly more heavily Italo-Greek than Italo-Albanian from what I understand. Alternatively, it may have been Albanian. It would not have been Arabic, used only by the Melkites among the Byzantine Rite Churches, or Aramaic, which is used primarily by the Maronites and Syriacs, neither of which use the Byzantine Rite. (There is not a separate Lebanese language; the Lebanese speak Arabic.)

Many years,

Neil
[/quote]

THANKS, Neil!!! I appreciate the chance to learn more. The parishoners there are trying to build a new church at some point (they worship in their parish hall now, I think). Pray for them. God bless you and yours.


#20

I experienced the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrystosdom twice in my hotel at Fatima, Portugal.

This hotel, Domus Pacis, has two chapels. One Roman and one Byzantine. One built above the other. The Byzantine chapel actually housed the Icon of Our Lady of Kazan for many years before it was brought to the Holy Fathers private chapel. We knew it was important but had no idea how much so. We could have stood in front of it all day if we only realised but I digress!

We were given an english translation of the Divine Liturgy which I have to say I fell in love with. Our 3 Roman Rite priests concelebrated and it was sung in the original language. I loved it. Of course we answered in english.

I attend the Roman rite almost every day and have always loved it. I would love to see the Byzantine Rite develop in Ireland. Our Holy Father is prayed for 3 times during the Divine Liturgy! Wonderful

All I can say is WOW. How blest are we to have these rites and liturgies. I would never favour one over another but would cherish both equally.

The text of the Liturgy is available here: ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/liturgy/liturgy.html certainly worth a look.

God Bless,


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