The elect are chosen [Predestined] not because of Faith, but so they might have Faith [belief].

A Catholic idea … do Protestants accept it too ?

I would agree entirely but I don’t know how many Catholics would, at least from what I have seen here.

I agree with it entirely :). If people are chosen because of faith - whether to have it in the future, or because they have have it already - salvation ceases to be totally God’s work; instead, man makes a contribution to it, & does so without God’s being the Author of that contribution. Which amounts to the very Semi-Pelagianism Luther complains of in a book by Erasmus.

To say that people’s faith is why they are predestined, does not solve the question of why they need to be predestined. It is far simpler to say God’s good will and pleasure, His eudokia as the NT calls it, is the cause of salvation & of all its parts, predestination included; otherwise one is stuck in an infinite logical regress. God pleases, therefore God predestines; and grants faith because it is His Will to do so. To bring on man as a cause of his own predestination or faith, is a non-answer; it’s not ultimate enough - God has to be involved: so the whole process in all its parts might as well be “retracted into” Him from the start.

Interesting that you say this … since it is from St. Augustine’s writings.

Since when are Catholics allowed to disagree with Saint A. ? :smiley:

I am familiar with both Augustine and Aquinas on predestination. I would suggest that you look at some of the posts on this thread with respect not only to double predestination but about predestination period.

“ Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." Jeremiah 1:5
11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” Romans 9

Everyone should read Romans 9 and then come back to discuss this topic. Predestination, connected to what is referred to as ‘Election’, does NOT contradict free will. Romans 9 speaks about how God created Pharaoh just to DESTROY him; to strengthen the faith and knowledge of Gods people towards Himself. In Romans 9 we find where God stated that He HATED Esau and loved Jacob BEFORE THEY WERE BORN OR DID ANYTHING GOOD OR EVIL!! In Romans 9 were told that God’s creation is like potters clay and God who created the clay and owns it has the RIGHT and deed of ownership to makes vessels to be honored and dishonored, and WHO are we to question God!!! Just look around people, I’m ugly in the eyes of people who see me while my brother is what people consider handsome. Should I or do I have the right to question Gods creation? I belong NOT TO MYSELF but to GOD, both by creation and also by Him purchasing me back on Calvary! You want answers as to why God made some disabled? Read the scriptures of the blind man who the Pharisees’ asked Jesus about, “Who sinned that made this man blind, he or his parents?” Jesus answered NEITHER; he was born blind so Christ would be glorified when he healed him! The same is true with EVERYTHING in one’s life, both physically and spiritually, HE OWNS IT ALL and has the RIGHT to do what He wishes with ALL his creation. As to salvation (soterology), He owns the souls of men because He created them and He’s God.

Read Romans 9 and then come back and discuss free will, predestination and election based upon Scripture. They are ALL taught in Scripture and they are all valid. Just because you personally may not understand these doctrines doesn’t mean they don’t exist or they are not true. Nobody can explain God but we all agree He is the great I AM and rules the world and knows everything. The same is true with Election, Predestination and Free Will. They do NOT contradict each other in any way. They may be difficult for some to understand until you balance out scripture. Those who have difficulty understanding these truths do not have a balance on scripture or they weaving mans teachings in with it, making a big pot of swill that makes no sense and is just plain awful! Too many have this doctrinal poison in their beliefs and the Christian community is weak because of it.

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, 
   "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, 
   and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." [f] 
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." [g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 
19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?" 20 But who are you, a mere human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " [h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for disposal of refuse? 
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
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