The End is it logical?

Im not very religious as many of you but I hope we could agree to discuss something form the non religious and religious point of view. I was wondering about the end of the world, as a judeo christian civilization we have been taugh to expect a moment like that in the future. Now Im open to accept it but I want to understand the logic of it, I mean why should millions die? and all that.

Catholic commentaries say that the second comming of Jesus is not something methaphorical, they stress that. So I jsut cant understand why the world cant change without a catastrophe?
Im just worry about people that have never being religious having to deal with such a rough situation like a nuclear war or worst a huge global catastrophe.

I respect catholicism but sometimes I feel that a divine being doing that in this instance could maybe be consider to be using a dictatorship rather than to say that we really have free will.
and I have problems to see the loving God that everyone talks about, when this end of the world prophecies comes along.

On the other hand im not sayign that the world is perfect there are kids dying of hunger every 5 seconds, abortion is legal etc and you cant realy concive a world in which you can watch movies on internet, chat and all that tecnological confort that we have, whereas every 5 seconds there is a kid starving to death. what I mean is that we are in a very unbalanced situation.

So, I more than agree that we must have a total change of mind. However I believe that the human life has a lot of value, therefore I dont agree with the understanding that there should be an end of the world or a great catastrophe if we as humans beings worth something.
In medieval times a lot of people suffered, there were no medicines, and they lived in average perhaps 30 or 40 years less than us now. Tecnology has brought us a lot of welfares and I believe we deserve to heve them in order to help others and in order to medicaly help ourselfs becuase life is something that has value.

So I dont agree that the end of the world or a huge world wide catastrophe by some sort of divinity is justified or fair nowadays.
I believe that God could change and improve mankind if he shows himself and if he comes again in his second coming. But I dont really understand the need for a catastrophe or for more global pain, and then a reward on the next life.

Please someone help me to understand this in a logical and rational way, from a non religions and religious point of view.

Thanks in advance and I appreaciate it.

why shouldn’t they die? they are all going to die in any case so is it a huge difference when and how? earthly death or at least cessation of earhtly life (no matter how that happens) is necessary to enter into heaven and the bodily resurrection and eternal glory in the presence of God, so why would you see this as an evil?

Well this life matters, we are not a bunch of worthless animals wandering in this planet, people have families, and childrens that they love more than themselves, Do you think everyone is going to accept your view?

Consider for a moment a totally un-supernatural event like a huge comet striking the earth, maybe even throwing it out of orbit enough to make it pass closer to or further from the sun. Past collisions of this sort caused the death of many older life forms. Maybe the sun goes supernova and we fry in our beds. Not fair, but the idea that everything has to be fair is a human foible. From a human perspective things are very often not fair, but that is the way it is.

Human behavior is often far from logical. Lots of bad stuff we bring on ourselves. It isn’t God’s fault if we fail to function well. In any case I don’t worry about the end. Whether it comes sooner or later there is a huge probability that I won’t be here to see it anyway. If you have been a good and faithful servant of the Lord there is naught to fear death is not the end.

The end could be 10,000+ years in the future! It could be tomorrow, though I doubt that because we humans haven’t learned NEARLY enough of what God is obviously trying to show us yet. We’re not to concern ourselves with when it is, just that it will in fact come.

Now, are you really worried about the idea that God would deprive people of a “long life” prematurely?

I respect catholicism but sometimes I feel that a divine being doing that in this instance could maybe be consider to be using a dictatorship rather than to say that we really have free will.
and I have problems to see the loving God that everyone talks about, when this end of the world prophecies comes along.

The Church makes no “end of the world” prophesies. Doing that is strictly forbidden actually.

Don’t listen to anyone making ARMAGEDDON predictions! That nonsense has been around since WAY before Jesus, and no one’s been right yet! :slight_smile:

On the other hand im not sayign that the world is perfect there are kids dying of hunger every 5 seconds, abortion is legal etc and you cant realy concive a world in which you can watch movies on internet, chat and all that tecnological confort that we have, whereas every 5 seconds there is a kid starving to death. what I mean is that we are in a very unbalanced situation.

So, I more than agree that we must have a total change of mind. However I believe that the human life has a lot of value, therefore I dont agree with the understanding that there should be an end of the world or a great catastrophe if we as humans beings worth something.

Each of us has an “end of the world”, which is our death.

Entire solar systems “die” when their star goes nova. The point is not that “dying is unfair”, but that the time we have BEFORE dying should be used as God would have us use it. If eternity exists for us persons (all humans and the angels and demons), which I believe it does, then we use our “earth time” as best we can and deal with “eternity time” when it comes, and we don’t worry about that which is only for God to “worry about”.

In medieval times a lot of people suffered, there were no medicines, and they lived in average perhaps 30 or 40 years less than us now. Tecnology has brought us a lot of welfares and I believe we deserve to heve them in order to help others and in order to medicaly help ourselfs becuase life is something that has value.

So I dont agree that the end of the world or a huge world wide catastrophe by some sort of divinity is justified or fair nowadays.
I believe that God could change and improve mankind if he shows himself and if he comes again in his second coming. But I dont really understand the need for a catastrophe or for more global pain, and then a reward on the next life.

Please someone help me to understand this in a logical and rational way, from a non religions and religious point of view.

Thanks in advance and I appreaciate it.

So, do you believe in our destiny in eternity, or do you just believe that we are destroyed as persons when we die?

yes , well I agree but you guys believe that God interferes a lot with the fate of humanity. Like tragedies such as ww2 were allowed by God becuase of the sin of men and that stuff.
He has certain influence in the development of mankind, so I realy doubt that we could just fry to death without God allowing it.

btw I believe in the end being somewaht soon, but that is just me that has produced in me an effect of disconform to acknoledge that the God that I was raised believing in, could allow such a global tragedy. like I dont see a justification for bringing such a tragedy the world isnt the best but we are more civilized than in other times in which people was more religious. We have have been raised with not so many direct war conflicts that woudl affect all mankind globaly, and we have diminished the death rates, and more. I cant really understand why there should be a global catastrophe anyway.

I mean about innocent people, people that are not into religion, children everywhere, non christians, like they would be forced to addopt the reality of the end of the world without they ebing aquainted with that, whenever this will happen.

Im not basing myself on the church but on science, in catholic prophecies, prophecies of another civilizations and several religions that seem to point to the very same exact thing, they talk aobut the very same thing, I could enter more in detail if you want anyway. Actualy my believes differ alittle from the ones of the church, Perhaps there are many things that are true that the church still hasent accepted.

I dont really believe in a fair judgment in a fair cause and effect and therefore I dont believe in the same afterlife that you think about. I just have a problem thinking that all your good and bad deeds could be kind of perfectly mathematicaly calculated or soemthing like that.
Also perhaps you could consider a deed or something you did as a realy good deed and God could consider it not so good and could probably have a different understandign from the one you have, and viceversa but im open to believe in everything anyway.

No one is asked if they are ready to die, are they?

We ARE forced to accept the reality of OUR end of the world, in every case, aren’t we? We don’t get a say in our staying alive (on earth) when it’s our time to die, do we?

It is a simple matter of fact that when the game is up, it’s up. When we “pre-big-finish (pre-second coming types)” people die, it doesn’t matter if we’re Christians or Spaghetarians. Time’s up when it’s up. We don’t get a say in when time is up.

We must simply, and definitionally, accept that God is most loving, most just and most merciful in how He deals with each individual when their time, and everyone’s time, is up.

Uh, OK.

As I said, don’t listen to any, and I mean ANY, so-called prophesies, be they religious or so-called “scientific”, because they all prove to be extremely silly.

You have better things to do, such as anything else, than to pay any attention to any predictions of “the end of the world” other than the two scenarios which will come to pass:

  1. Your own death.
  2. The actual transformation of the “world” (the universe) at the actual end of time as we mortals know it, when our eternity with God, or without God, will start.

So, you don’t believe in an omnipotent God, capable of being omni potent?

Also perhaps you could consider a deed or something you did as a realy good deed and God could consider it not so good and could probably have a different understandign from the one you have, and viceversa but im open to believe in everything anyway.

God gave us a way to sense the proper bounds of action within natural law, and He gave us divine revelation which tells uss precisely what to do to be good.

It’s our job to do our best in doing good, and God’s job to decide if we’ve been good enough to justly choose Him over not Him.

You are “indecisive” about your goals (about what “good” means) and about the best way to work toward those (in your case lack of) goals because your sense of natural law is not governed by divine revelation.

What is needed is for you to have clear goals, as spelled out by Church dogma, and to work toward those goals according to Church theology having to do with ethical and moral human action.

Well I think the church is nice but I find some problems with it, the dogmas are quite primitive, and that makes it hard for modern peopel to cling to it.

For example reincarnation is sometimes more logical than to beleive that we have only one life. Why? becuase sometiems people are born in very difficult situations, say being born as a handicap or being born death, I cant really believe those things happpen becuase of the sins of mankind. and that some people are less fortunate than others just becuase of that.

Lets speculate a little about these stuff.

THe church say that we can beleive in extraterrestrial life now but they have especulated that they could be born without original sin, so what is the justice in being born as a human with original sins or being born as an alien without original sin. There could be perhaps some different degrees of souls.

That would explain the speculation that the vatican made that some extraterrestrial beings could be born without original sins whereas we arent.
and the different deegres of souls tells me that it seems to make reincarnation more logical, than to believe that God creates the same day some souls of people that are born with original sins and other souls that arent born with original sin.

Also the dogma of God being the creator is quite old fashion now scientist are discovering that all the matter that came int existens in the big bang might have came from another universe that was contracting.

Then how does that previous universe got create ? dunno perhaps the universe is infitine and has always existed: It didnt begin in the big bang at all. So perhaps the dogma of God being not a part of his creation is not quite right he may be an omnipresent conciousness that is part of everything like a pantheist view of God since the universe is very likely to be infinite.

The thing is that for instance the church is restricted and soemtimes they know so little about things, like finaly they said people can believe in aliens. before that it was a taboo issue but anyway. I think that if something seems to really be right you should believe it and you shouldnt wait 100 years later for the church to say, it is right to believe on it.

None of the dogmas of the Church are primitive, and the only way that they could appear to be so is if one doen’t understand them.

My guess is that you don’t understand several of them. Which ones would you call “primitive”, and why?

For example reincarnation is sometimes more logical than to beleive that we have only one life. Why? becuase sometiems people are born in very difficult situations, say being born as a handicap or being born death, I cant really believe those things happpen becuase of the sins of mankind. and that some people are less fortunate than others just becuase of that.

We are all born with some “handicap”, and that is our opportunity to shine through that handicap or not.

This idea that “God is non-existent”, or “the Church is obviously wrong because if she were right the world would be perfect” seems to be VERY pervasive these days!

Where, from whom, did you get the idea that because the world isn’t perfect God and His creation are not as the Church tells us He and it is?

Lets speculate a little about these stuff.

THe church say that we can beleive in extraterrestrial life now but they have especulated that they could be born without original sin, so what is the justice in being born as a human with original sins or being born as an alien without original sin. There could be perhaps some different degrees of souls.

Mankind (earth-type) chose to sin, which is what the original sin was, and the descendants of Adam/Eve have to deal with the consequences of that.

Now it’s possible that some other Adam/Eve elsewhere in the cosmos may not have given in to temptation like our Adam/Eve did.

If they didn’t, then I look forward to their arrival. If they did, then they will probably have to come here for redemption, though it’s not impossible that they had their own “Christ” event in their locale and are working on their “education” just as we are.

That would explain the speculation that the vatican made that some extraterrestrial beings could be born without original sins whereas we arent.
and the different deegres of souls tells me that it seems to make reincarnation more logical, than to believe that God creates the same day some souls of people that are born with original sins and other souls that arent born with original sin.

Your basic misunderstanding is that original sin was not IMPOSED on mankind, or “alienkind”, but was chosen by them.

You might want to read the article linked to above.

Also the dogma of God being the creator is quite old fashion now scientist are discovering that all the matter that came int existens in the big bang might have came from another universe that was contracting.

So it’s your believed dogma against my believed dogma? Why is your’s more believable?

Who “set off” the big-bang? Do you know that the big-bang was suggested by a Catholic Priest, Father Georges-Henri Lemaitre ?

The actual mechanism of how the big-bang worked doesn’t answer how it (or them) started in the first place.

Then how does that previous universe got create ? dunno perhaps the universe is infitine and has always existed: It didnt begin in the big bang at all. So perhaps the dogma of God being not a part of his creation is not quite right he may be an omnipresent conciousness that is part of everything like a pantheist view of God since the universe is very likely to be infinite.

Perhaps. Show me some reasons for believing these things, and I’ll consider them. Until then, why do you believe what you believe instead of what the Church says you should believe?

The thing is that for instance the church is restricted and soemtimes they know so little about things, like finaly they said people can believe in aliens. before that it was a taboo issue but anyway. I think that if something seems to really be right you should believe it and you shouldnt wait 100 years later for the church to say, it is right to believe on it.

I was perfectly allowed to believe in aliens before this “opinion piece” by the Vatican Astronomer, and I’m still fully allowed to not believe in aliens if I choose to.

You have to distinguish actual dogma from various theological opinions. The Church has access to as much scientific information as ANY group on the planet, and most likely the single most intelligent “government officials” of any country in the world.

Please don’t bother trying to convince Catholics that their religious leaders are morons from the dark ages, because we know better. :slight_smile:

I’d LOVE to hear how you’ve come to think that Catholic leaders are stupid, or at least uneducated and/or unenlightened?

Were you taught this in some atheistic school setting, perhaps?

I never said there weird morons, I respect them but I disagree with them, I just said that they were not updated. I mean try to be neautral and logical how can adam n eve being apes were able to sin and condem half of humanity, what a huge responsability. anyway lets agree taht evolutions is a real fact.

The one I called primitive was about God causing a creation or the big bang. God didnt cause that it was a natural phenomenon
like I dont udnerstand how can people think that he is going to create this universe using mystical means. he may have used another universe that was contracting in order to create this one. The thing is that you might not care a lot about this things like this but every advanced phycisist deal with this stuff everyday and it is hard to believe that a God could created the big bang, rather the numbres seem to show that it ws caused by a universe that was contracting.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loop_quantum_gravity#LQG_and_the_big_bang_singularity

So that stuff like that really repel any advanced scientists to cling to any religion becuase many of their numbers point out that the universe might be infinite, and while people is mystified the big bang attributing it to the finger of God, it might have been a natural thing rather than anythign spiritual. This dosent have to do with believing or not in a God, but in the fact that the dogma of putting away God and creations might be mistaken.
But you guys dont deal with this stuff everyday so for you it is easy to say God is the creator without caring about these stuff.

The cahtolic church unfortunately is not in contact with String theoriest nor other advanced physicist that are studying quantum gravity. Seem this scientists are the most advanced nowadays and they are pointing out what im saying, and im basing myself on their work. both theories Quantum Gravity and String Theory attempt to explain the big bang and demystified.

I dont want u to change ur mind about anything but perhaps you shoudl attept to consider that the big bang was not something that sparked form teh finger of God, but rather something natural.
That is the main problem the church has with his dogma becuase if the big bang was something natural then the universe might be infinite and there is when the dogma is over.
ther are two options.
-God caused the big bang with an explanable divine act. (which seem to be debunked by science).
-The big bang is a natural phenomena allowed by God, as any natural phenomenon, and it seems to point out that the universe might be infinite and not a creation.

I know you probably dont care at all about which is right but scientists deal with this stuff all day so you cant request them to cling to a religion that goes against the observation. and I know catholic physicist must be having a rough time with this as well.

However this dosent has to do with the existens of God at all, but about the dogmatism in the church. Perhaps the church ll only get involved in all this some 100 years later from now.

The world comes to an end not because God arbitrarily annihilates it, but because of what can be called the future IRREVOCABLE fall of the near totality of the human race.

the end of the world is inevitable because “iniquity worketh” and can only be restrained or restored by the Holy Spirit before a subsequent manifestation of the fallen nature becomes practically incurable.

First, the whole of humanity shall hear the Gospel before the end, as will the “fullness of the Gentiles” occur before the end of the world.

When the Gentiles as a near whole fall away and rebel against the Gospel after the fullness of the Gentiles, and the eyes of the Jews are opened at this time, there is nothing to prevent the end of the world because of the following:

IF God stood by and did nothing, humanity would destroy itself anyway becauase first, they will martyr what is left of the Catholic Church and any men of good will (a remnant of Gentiles, and most of the Jews) because the Church will still bear witness against the deception and apostasy and will incur the worst persecution (sinners don’t like to hear bad news).

then, the artificial peace given by antichrist will deteriorate INTRINSICALLY because of man’s sins. The idea that man can fully ignore God and forge a peaceful utopia without regard for any Divine Revelation or Assistance is the supreme lie.

As Our Lady of Peace points out, if men have not peace with God, only time is needed before man loses peace between himself. For if you cannot love God who is infinitely perfect and LOVE, how the hell can you love your fellow man who is a selfish sinner?

Hence, worldwide, self inflicted horrors and destruction are the inevitable consequences of sin and turning from God, and so the deceptive peace of antichrist will inevitably give way to the Great Tribulation. If God didn’t interfere, humanity would then destroy themselves completely.

But, “for the sake of the elect, those days shall be shortened.” God will intervene with the Second Coming before the Church is completely killed off and before humanity destroys themselves.

Secondly, humanity will then deserve total judgement because it knew everything about God and threw it in his face, as did the demons in their test.

The demons are conjectured to have seen the whole plan of the Incarnation and salvation history and understood all of what would be Catholicism, so that their rebellion against God was the supreme insult to God, an unforgivable sin.

Humanity, therefore, shall be unforgivable at that time anyway.

hence, as St. Peter describes in his Second Epistle, the respective destructions of the world in the beginning and end are types. In the beginning, God destroys humanity through the Flood, but it is an act of Redemption, that is, baptism, or cleansing from sin, as opposed to the world at the end, which is destroyed by fire, for it knows the fullness, way more than the men of Noah’s day, whose knowledge of God is primitive. A world that has know the Father, Son and Spirit and all doctrine and love, and then says to God go screw yourself, is deserving of fire, not water, which is given to primitive man, who is not historically culpable to be destoryed, but that is beginning to be redeemed.

Scientists can’t even agree on this. Evolution is far from fact. It is still a theory! Very far from fact.

The one I called primitive was about God causing a creation or the big bang. God didnt cause that it was a natural phenomenon

God created nature.

like I dont udnerstand how can people think that he is going to create this universe using mystical means. he may have used another universe that was contracting in order to create this one.

But who created *that *universe? There must have been a beginning.

The thing is that you might not care a lot about this things like this but every advanced phycisist deal with this stuff everyday and it is hard to believe that a God could created the big bang, rather the numbres seem to show that it ws caused by a universe that was contracting.

…that was also created by God.

The cahtolic church unfortunately is not in contact with String theoriest nor other advanced physicist that are studying quantum gravity. Seem this scientists are the most advanced nowadays and they are pointing out what im saying, and im basing myself on their work. both theories Quantum Gravity and String Theory attempt to explain the big bang and demystified.

All of science can be reduced down to humans trying to understand God’s creation. When He did it, what did it look like? Science will help us understand. But science always fails to answer the question, “Why?” I can be a 4-year old and fluster the greatest scientist on the planet by asking, “why? why?” and eventually he will come to something that he cannot explain. Why? Can only be answered, in the end, by God.

Peace in Christ,

Andre

God wants us to ask "why’ about some questions. The meaning of Salvation history is one of them, which includes how to understand the end of the world theologically. The apocalypse is therefore about the whole of salvation history.

My personal feeling is that God never kills people; only people do. (although it’s much easier for us to believe HE was to blame).

If he was capable of enough love to create the world, he obviously had extremely great love for every living thing, including the tiniest life form.

People alone are the cause of the majority who starve and who die brutally. We were put on this earth to learn of the devastating effects of selfishness and greed. Hopefully one day we will learn although we’re incredibly slow.

I think too many people today believe they were put on this earth for plain and simple selfish enjoyment. So many dedicate their lives to shaping their bodies, enhancing their breasts and lips, and so on, although God has made it clear he’s not at all impressed by vanity. In fact, it deters from spirituality.

My feeling is that each part of the universe depends on another part to make it run smoothly. When God put us here, he hoped we would do our best to try to beautify the earth and in turn contribute to that universe instead of destroy it.

He gave every single one of us a skill (including the most severely handicapped, who could teach others a lot simply by being who they were). Some of us would be protesters; some teachers, some writers, some politicians (hopefully ethical), some caregivers, some speakers, some animal protectors, and so on. Even animals can teach humans so much about love, humility, and total lack of greed. It’s so terrible the way we treat these beautiful creatures, mainly for the sake of money, yet dare to call ourselves superior.

None of us needs to be told what our assignment is. We should all know automatically if we are the least bit grateful for any gift we have been given and care to give thanks.

These gifts weren’t given to us simply so we could become rich and buy the fanciest houses and yachts and boast to our friends about wealth. God expected us to use EVERY gift given not just to appease ourselves, but more importantly to contribute as much as possible to the betterment of this world. Wouldn’t you just LOVE, more than anything else in life, to live in a world of the type that God had hoped we would be able to create for ourselves?

Re your comments about free will, the bible does say we do all have free will and by the time the world ends, people WILL have chosen their own directions. God is never going to force you to choose Him. If you aren’t grateful for what you have been given and don’t want to be with Him, he would just as soon not be with you.

As far as dictatorship goes, you may indeed feel that some religions base their teachings on this, and perhaps some do. So start by simply reading the bible with sincere interest, just a couple of pages a day, and then, if you like, you can join the religion that most agrees with your interpretations.

Whatever you believe in, you will begin to realize in time that the bible was written by someone with great intellect and wisdom – so great in fact that each time we try to make decisions to the contrary they generally backfire. It was also written by someone who obviously knew our future.

Your questions about "why we have to go through all of this are interesting too. It’s my feeling that God himself wasn’t born perfect. He had to learn after perhaps having to be reborn many times (for those who believe in reincarnation), or by having to undergo considerable hardship himself before getting to where he is now.

Re unfortunate events, those who are given everything generally have almost NO empathy for anyone. Sad to say, that also includes large numbers of people who call themselves religious. Sometimes God has to give us some really tough blows before he can shake us up enough to learn what it’s like to live in the shoes of others who go through difficult situations. Only then can we offer them sincere heartfelt understanding, empathy and love.

I don’t know how logical and rational I can be on this since we are talking about predictions of what will happen at the time of the second coming of GOD into our midst.

One problem is that, when we wonder these things and ask these kinds of questions, we are imposing our viewpoint onto God . We are saying that WE would not choose to do this, therefore we cannot understand why God would. We are measuring everything by our measure not by God’s.

So instead of trying to understand God’s logic, we should just be greatful that, in His loving care, He has told us what is to come so that we have the oportunity to avoid it, and/or the grace to survive it.

Peace
James

or the unvierse might be infinite, God even use natual means in order to make miracles. but everything seems to point out that the universe could be infinite and that energy has been arround forever. shifting from universe to universe.

hey I believe in God, I just disagre with some dogmas that the church has.

I agree with almost everything that you have said.

That time of the Gospel that you are talking about is it biblical or is it jsut from our lady of Garabandal?
you shoudl read the mayan prophecies tehy say the very same thing. THey mention the coming of a messiah which is quite weird seems they didnt believe in a messiah but in gods, and the arrival of the time of the gospel.
though the knowledge of the will of God is also in different religious traditions not only in catholicism.
The mayas go alittle further in being more open to talk about the end of the world period, than in revelations.

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