The eternal nature of the Qur'an...please help me understand?


#1

I have asked certain Muslims to explain the nature of the Qur’an. Some have done so, but I still have some questions.

Islam teaches that the Qur’an is the eternal Word of God, correct?

My question in this:

Does the Qur’an exist apart from God? If it does, and is eternal, you have two seperately existing things that are eternal, God and the Qur’an.

Either the Qur’an exists in God and is a part of God, or it is seperate and exists with God. If it is eternal and seperate and exists with God, I see no reason for Muslims having a problem with the Christian concept of the Word of God (Logos) as found in John 1.

Peace


#2

[quote=dennisknapp]I have asked certain Muslims to explain the nature of the Qur’an. Some have done so, but I still have some questions.

Islam teaches that the Qur’an is the eternal Word of God, correct?

My question in this:

Does the Qur’an exist apart from God? If it does, and is eternal, you have two seperately existing things that are eternal, God and the Qur’an.

Either the Qur’an exists in God and is a part of God, or it is seperate and exists with God. If it is eternal and seperate and exists with God, I see no reason for Muslims having a problem with the Christian concept of the Word of God (Logos) as found in John 1.

Peace
[/quote]

In a nutshell:

The Quran is not the book of any god, and certainly not the book of the Judeo-Christian God.

Then who wrote it?

Muhammad and his uncle, the former christian monk “Buhaira”.

The Muslims also added verses to it through the years.

The Quran is basically a mix of:

Bedouin folklore, fairy-tales, destorted stories from the Bible, myths, lies, and a lot of sex-talk (to appeal to the audience).

So forget about the god of islam, etc… The truth is, they have no god.

They pray to NOBODY!

They are actually praying to SATAN.

That is the sad reality.

They don’t want to learn it or think about it.


#3

[quote=USCatholic]In a nutshell:

The Quran is not the book of any god, and certainly not the book of the Judeo-Christian God.

Then who wrote it?

Muhammad and his uncle, the former christian monk “Buhaira”.

The Muslims also added verses to it through the years.

The Quran is basically a mix of:

Bedouin folklore, fairy-tales, destorted stories from the Bible, myths, lies, and a lot of sex-talk (to appeal to the audience).

So forget about the god of islam, etc… The truth is, they have no god.

They pray to NOBODY!

They are actually praying to SATAN.

That is the sad reality.

They don’t want to learn it or think about it.
[/quote]

Thank you for your post, but this approach is not productive in open dialog with Muslims. I would like to discuss certain theological points, not point fingers.

Let God judge and us debate.

Peace


#4

[quote=dennisknapp]Thank you for your post, but this approach is not productive in open dialog with Muslims. I would like to discuss certain theological points, not point fingers.

Let God judge and us debate.

Peace
[/quote]

Um, point fingers? Me?

To tell you the truth is pointing fingers?

Ok, forget about Satan. But the origin of the Quran is exactly as I told you.

Furthermore, do you know that Muhammad sat on his “wife’s” (Khadigha) lap and moved from one leg to the other to test the “revelation” from Allah??

And if I remember well, he also moved between her legs, but I’ll confirm this to you later with quotes, if I’m correct.

But the lap thing, it’s confirmed, it’s true. Any Muslim shouldn’t deny it. Some are actually ashamed of it.

There are many shameful stories of Muhammad.

But that is Islam for you.

I’m not kidding.


#5

[quote=USCatholic]Um, point fingers? Me?

To tell you the truth is pointing fingers?

Ok, forget about Satan. But the origin of the Quran is exactly as I told you.

Furthermore, do you know that Muhammad sat on his “wife’s” (Khadigha) lap and moved from one leg to the other to test the “revelation” from Allah??

And if I remember well, he also moved between her legs, but I’ll confirm this to you later with quotes, if I’m correct.

But the lap thing, it’s confirmed, it’s true. Any Muslim shouldn’t deny it. Some are actually ashamed of it.

There are many shameful stories of Muhammad.

But that is Islam for you.

I’m not kidding.
[/quote]

I think Dennis is trying to have a discussions with Muslims and you are hijacking his thread:( Dennis is quite intelligent and can handle his thread:ehh:


#6

[quote=USCatholic]Um, point fingers? Me?

To tell you the truth is pointing fingers?

Ok, forget about Satan. But the origin of the Quran is exactly as I told you.

Furthermore, do you know that Muhammad sat on his “wife’s” (Khadigha) lap and moved from one leg to the other to test the “revelation” from Allah??

And if I remember well, he also moved between her legs, but I’ll confirm this to you later with quotes, if I’m correct.

But the lap thing, it’s confirmed, it’s true. Any Muslim shouldn’t deny it. Some are actually ashamed of it.

There are many shameful stories of Muhammad.

But that is Islam for you.

I’m not kidding.
[/quote]

I don’t know, nor do I want to know.

This thread is about the nature of the Qur’an from a Muslim perspective and its theological ramifications.

Let’s stay on topic.

Peace


#7

[quote=Lisa4Catholics]I think Dennis is trying to have a discussions with Muslims and you are hijacking his thread:( Dennis is quite intelligent and can handle his thread:ehh:
[/quote]

Thanks, Lisa!

:o


#8

[quote=dennisknapp]Thanks, Lisa!

:o
[/quote]

No problem I am eager to see the thread dialog:) Yours are always quite interesting.God Bless,Lisa


#9

[quote=dennisknapp]I don’t know, nor do I want to know.

This thread is about the nature of the Qur’an from a Muslim perspective and its theological ramifications.

Let’s stay on topic.

Peace
[/quote]

Ok, I’ll back up a little. Let’s see


#10

Will no Muslim respond and help me understand this concept?

Peace


#11

[quote=dennisknapp]I have asked certain Muslims to explain the nature of the Qur’an. Some have done so, but I still have some questions.

Islam teaches that the Qur’an is the eternal Word of God, correct?

My question in this:

Does the Qur’an exist apart from God? If it does, and is eternal, you have two seperately existing things that are eternal, God and the Qur’an.

Either the Qur’an exists in God and is a part of God, or it is seperate and exists with God. If it is eternal and seperate and exists with God, I see no reason for Muslims having a problem with the Christian concept of the Word of God (Logos) as found in John 1.

Peace
[/quote]

Hello Dennis,

We believe the Quran is the Speech of God. Just like God has knowledge which is eternal, just like God has Wisdom which is eternal, His speech is also eternal.


#12

[quote=Emad]Hello Dennis,

We believe the Quran is the Speech of God. Just like God has knowledge which is eternal, just like God has Wisdom which is eternal, His speech is also eternal.
[/quote]

But is this seperate from Him? His wisdom and knowledge are a part of Him, just as yours is a part of you. But the Qur’an seems to be seperate and eternal. It seems to take on a whole other aspect then just God’s speech.

Peace


#13

[quote=dennisknapp]But is this seperate from Him? His wisdom and knowledge are a part of Him, just as yours is a part of you. But the Qur’an seems to be seperate and eternal. It seems to take on a whole other aspect then just God’s speech.

Peace
[/quote]

No it is just like His knowledge is part of Him, so is His speech.


#14

[quote=Emad]No it is just like His knowledge is part of Him, so is His speech.
[/quote]

So, God’s speech is only the Qur’an? He has said nothing else?

Peace


#15

[quote=dennisknapp]So, God’s speech is only the Qur’an? He has said nothing else?

Peace
[/quote]

Ofcourse He has. However the Quran is part of His speech.


#16

Dennis:

With respect, the Quaran is entirely seperate from God, and has very little or nothing to do with Him. Thus, it is not eternal.

I’m all for respectful dialogue with Muslims, but the end result can only be a polite agreement to disagree and an effort at working together in common decency on humanitarian projects. That should be enough. We differ as to the Person of Jesus Christ (you brought up the Logos, the Divine Word, which we believe to be Himself, the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity) and situation will not change unless either the Church alters Its teaching or Islam alters its. We should just face that fact. In fact, in another thread, Moslems mention Shrik or shirk, which they described as the sin of believing that God has a partner or a familial relationship. We believe (and some of the saints died for this reason) that God does most certainly have such a relationship: He has a Son. They say that those dying in this belief are doomed to Hell. How do we go about getting around it?


#17

[quote=JKirkLVNV]Dennis:

With respect, the Quaran is entirely seperate from God, and has very little or nothing to do with Him. Thus, it is not eternal.

I’m all for respectful dialogue with Muslims, but the end result can only be a polite agreement to disagree and an effort at working together in common decency on humanitarian projects. That should be enough. We differ as to the Person of Jesus Christ (you brought up the Logos, the Divine Word, which we believe to be Himself, the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity) and situation will not change unless either the Church alters Its teaching or Islam alters its. We should just face that fact. In fact, in another thread, Moslems mention Shrik or shirk, which they described as the sin of God having a partner or a familial relationship. We believe (and some of the saints died for this reason) that God does most certainly have such a relationship: He has a Son. They say that those dying in this belief are doomed to Hell. How do we go about getting around it?
[/quote]

If you are speaking from a Christian viewpoint when you say the Quran is seperate from God I understand that. However if you are saying Muslims believe that it is seperate from God, I would like to challenge you on that. You have your relegion and I have mine. Your religion also condemns me to hell if I don’t accept Jesus as my saviour, correct? However there is nothing wrong with discussing our religions together as long as we have open minds and ask questions for the sake of learning and not debating.

:slight_smile:


#18

[quote=Emad]Ofcourse He has. However the Quran is part of His speech.
[/quote]

It is part of His speech and eternal? How does that work?

If it is just part and not the whole, then it is seperate, but then you have a seperate eternal entity?

Peace


#19

[quote=dennisknapp]It is part of His speech and eternal? How does that work?

If it is just part and not the whole, then it is seperate, but then you have a seperate eternal entity?

Peace
[/quote]

No it is not. You are making it confusing for yourself. God is eternal and all His characteristics are eternal. What I mean when I said it is part of His speech is that God said other things. He spoke to other Prophets and sent them His words as well.

For example I can say something to you now, and say something to someone else tomorrow and both of them are still my speech.


#20

[quote=Emad]If you are speaking from a Christian viewpoint when you say the Quran is seperate from God I understand that. However if you are saying Muslims believe that it is seperate from God, I would like to challenge you on that. You have your relegion and I have mine. Your religion also condemns me to hell if I don’t accept Jesus as my saviour, correct? However there is nothing wrong with discussing our religions together as long as we have open minds and ask questions for the sake of learning and not debating.

:slight_smile:
[/quote]

I believe that he said that he asked the question of Moslems, but still had questions about it. I assumed it was open for anyone. As for the eternal destiny of Moslems, I would refer you to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. There is at least one on-line version.


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