The first transubstantiation

At the Last Supper, did the Eucharist transubstantiate into the body and blood of Christ? Christ was sitting right there. His body was sitting at the table. His blood was pumping through his veins. When the deciples looked to Jesus, did they look to the bread and wine, or did they look to the Jesus who was speaking to them?

Jesus was there, Jesus is God, God is everywhere (Omnipresent is the term I think)…kind of like now, mass at different locations at the same time, Jesus is at each one of them in the Eucharist.

[quote=Catholic Tom]Jesus was there, Jesus is God, God is everywhere (Omnipresent is the term I think)…kind of like now, mass at different locations at the same time, Jesus is at each one of them in the Eucharist.
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I would dispute that Jesus was Omnipresent. When Jesus was in the upper room, he was only in the upper room. When he was on the cross, he was only on the cross.

That is how I see it anyway.

If it didn’t become His body and blood there, it never does, and the Church that teaches it is a false Church (both Catholic and Orthodox). Christ didn’t say “after I’m dead, resurrected and ascended, this will be my body”.

With God all things are possible. That doesn’t mean that the apostles understood what was happening at that moment. Their understanding would come later.

[quote=Angainor]I would dispute that Jesus was Omnipresent. When Jesus was in the upper room, he was only in the upper room. When he was on the cross, he was only on the cross.

That is how I see it anyway.
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You do see how it’s possible for Him to be in more than one place at once though right?

[quote=Angainor]I would dispute that Jesus was Omnipresent. When Jesus was in the upper room, he was only in the upper room. When he was on the cross, he was only on the cross.

That is how I see it anyway.
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Durning Christ’s physical life, Jesus is fully Spiritual God and fully free willed fleshly human in one person. Jesus of the flesh was bound by physical time. Jesus in the form of the Eucharist is Spiritual and Omnipresent to all physical time before and after His death and ressurection. The Spritual real presence in the Eucharist flows out from Christ’s physical death on the cross into Spiritual omni-Presents to all the Eucharistic celibrations of past and future physical time.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

[quote=Steven Merten] Jesus in the form of the Eucharist is Spiritual and Omnipresent to all physical time before and after His death and ressurection. The Spritual real presence in the Eucharist flows out from Christ’s physical death on the cross into Spiritual omni-Presents to all the Eucharistic celibrations of past and future physical time.

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I apologize if I am misunderstanding, but Jesus in the Eucharist is not just sprirtual, but also physical. It is a physical Real Presence.

[quote=Genesis315]You do see how it’s possible for Him to be in more than one place at once though right?
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No, actually. At least not while he walked the earth.

I understand that Jesus was divine, and I am not sure what that would be like, but Jesus was also Perfect Man. I do know what it is like to be a man. Human beings are only in one place at a time. If Jesus was in more than one place, I don’t think you could call him Perfect Man.

[quote=Genesis315]I apologize if I am misunderstanding, but Jesus in the Eucharist is not just sprirtual, but also physical. It is a physical Real Presence.
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Right, so how could Jesus be physically in the Eucharist if he was sitting nearby?

[quote=Angainor]Right, so how could Jesus be physically in the Eucharist if he was sitting nearby?
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Since you are not Catholic, I can’t use the bilocation of saints example:D . It’s because God is so powerful He can physically be in two places at once (or make it possible for someone else like Padre Pio to be in two places at once.) This is key to the Eucharist since the entire being of Jesus–Body, Blood, Divinity–is in each consecrated Host all over the world. It truly is a miracle that us Catholics get to experience every week-or even every day!:slight_smile:

[quote=Genesis315]Since you are not Catholic, I can’t use the bilocation of saints example:D .
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Yes, that is quite unfamiliar.:hmmm: . Sounds very mysterious.:slight_smile:

Padre Pio was in two places at once?:confused:

That would be wierd.

P.S. Is you’re name Genesis 3:15 or 31:5?

[quote=Angainor]Is you’re name Genesis 3:15 or 31:5?
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Haha, 3:15. I totally overlooked the fact that it could be read as 31:5 in it’s current form until after it was too late:o . What is Gen 31:5? I’ll have to look it up. Hopefully it’s a good one and I’ll have a doubly cool screenname:D .

As for bilocation, there’s been a few saints like that although I can’t remember the others off the top of my head.

[quote=Angainor]I would dispute that Jesus was Omnipresent. When Jesus was in the upper room, he was only in the upper room. When he was on the cross, he was only on the cross.

That is how I see it anyway.
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Then you make Christ a liar.

Christ says in John 3:13, "And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven."

If Christ is in heaven at the same time he is on earth, then He can be present in the flesh and in the Blessed Sacrament at the same time.

You don’t believe in the incarnation, that the Son of God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, took our human nature by the power of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

If Christ isn’t omnipresent, then He is a liar who is not to be believed or worshiped. If Christ is omnipresent, then not only was He in heaven while in the flesh on earth, but he is truly present, body, blood, soul, and divinity, in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar.

Cor Jesu, miserere nobis!

[quote=Stone Cold]Then you make Christ a liar.

Christ says in John 3:13, "And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven."

If Christ is in heaven at the same time he is on earth, then He can be present in the flesh and in the Blessed Sacrament at the same time.

You don’t believe in the incarnation, that the Son of God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, took our human nature by the power of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

If Christ isn’t omnipresent, then He is a liar who is not to be believed or worshiped. If Christ is omnipresent, then not only was He in heaven while in the flesh on earth, but he is truly present, body, blood, soul, and divinity, in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar.

Cor Jesu, miserere nobis!
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Ouch! Well done, way to present the teachings of Holy Mother Church to one of our seperated brethren, I’m sure he’ll be signing up for RCIA any day now. You could have put it much more kindly and still made your point.

[quote=JKirkLVNV]Ouch! Well done, way to present the teachings of Holy Mother Church to one of our seperated brethren, I’m sure he’ll be signing up for RCIA any day now. You could have put it much more kindly and still made your point.
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There is no malice in my reply to Angainor. I may have used strong language, but when Christ says He is in heaven and on earth at the same time and someone says otherwise, isn’t that making Christ a liar?

If I have offended Angainor by my strong language, I apologize. It is not my intent to offend anyone. Rather, it is my intent to correctly state the teachings of Holy Mother Church against those who wish to distort it.

I wouldn’t worry about Angainor turning away from the Church because of my post. I checked another thread which has a poll about becoming Catholic. He voted no, I will never become Catholic.

I have also checked other posts by Angainor and I’ve noticed this isn’t the first time he has attacked the Holy Eucharist.

Besides, my name isn’t Stone Cold for nothing. :smiley:

I think we’re barking up the wrong tree to try to explain Christ’s presence in the Eucharist and at the last supper through bilocation. Two things are going on. Before the crucifixion, Christ was fully human and fully divine. Due to his human nature, he took on human limitations, such as his apparent limited knowledge in some verses (something upon which Protestants and Catholics alike can agree). Likewise, it occurs nowhere in Scripture that BEFORE the crucifixion Christ is physically sitting in one room and walking down some street at the same time - bilocation. This is what our Protestant friends, including Angainor, assume we are saying - no wonder it seems strange. HOWEVER, after the crucifixion, Christ has a glorified human nature, as apparent by his ability to walk through doors and appear and disappear at will. He is no longer bound by space. He is also no longer bound by time. He can physically be anywhere and anywhen. So, at the last supper, Angainor, we have Christ’s human nature (and divine, of course), sitting at the table with the apostles. We also have his physical presence, transformed at the resurrection, SARAMENTALLY present in the Eucharist since it is no longer bound by time (as we are on Earth) and can make itself present in the past as well as in the future. Hope this helps. God Bless.

[quote=awfulthings9]I think we’re barking up the wrong tree to try to explain Christ’s presence in the Eucharist and at the last supper through bilocation. Two things are going on. Before the crucifixion, Christ was fully human and fully divine. Due to his human nature, he took on human limitations, such as his apparent limited knowledge in some verses (something upon which Protestants and Catholics alike can agree). Likewise, it occurs nowhere in Scripture that BEFORE the crucifixion Christ is physically sitting in one room and walking down some street at the same time - bilocation. This is what our Protestant friends, including Angainor, assume we are saying - no wonder it seems strange. HOWEVER, after the crucifixion, Christ has a glorified human nature, as apparent by his ability to walk through doors and appear and disappear at will. He is no longer bound by space. He is also no longer bound by time. He can physically be anywhere and anywhen. So, at the last supper, Angainor, we have Christ’s human nature (and divine, of course), sitting at the table with the apostles. We also have his physical presence, transformed at the resurrection, SARAMENTALLY present in the Eucharist since it is no longer bound by time (as we are on Earth) and can make itself present in the past as well as in the future. Hope this helps. God Bless.
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This is wrong. At the Last Supper Christ was also physically present in the Eucharist. He said “This is my Body.” He did not say “This will be my body after the resurrection.”

[quote=Stone Cold]There is no malice in my reply to Angainor. I may have used strong language, but when Christ says He is in heaven and on earth at the same time and someone says otherwise, isn’t that making Christ a liar?

If I have offended Angainor by my strong language, I apologize. It is not my intent to offend anyone. Rather, it is my intent to correctly state the teachings of Holy Mother Church against those who wish to distort it.

I wouldn’t worry about Angainor turning away from the Church because of my post. I checked another thread which has a poll about becoming Catholic. He voted no, I will never become Catholic.

I have also checked other posts by Angainor and I’ve noticed this isn’t the first time he has attacked the Holy Eucharist.

Besides, my name isn’t Stone Cold for nothing. :smiley:
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Got it and I agree with your arguments. But even if he says he’ll never convert, we should address him with courtesy. If he attacks the Eucharist, we should report him to the moderators.

[quote=JKirkLVNV]Got it and I agree with your arguments. But even if he says he’ll never convert, we should address him with courtesy. If he attacks the Eucharist, we should report him to the moderators.
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I know you were responding to me in all charity and I will take into consideration what you have said. I agree we should be courteous to everyone, especially our separated brethren in Christ.

I see this thread as an attack on the Holy Eucharist based on the other posts I have seen from Angainor. I don’t believe he is interested in a sincere debate on the subject, since he continues to have his arguments against the Real Presence refuted.

Pray for me that I use the virtue of prudence and become more charitable towards everyone.

Pax tecum

There is a very good answer to this by Scott Hahn, though it is quite long. He is not addressing this exact topic, but in his talk on the “4th cup,” this topic is indirectly addressed.

209.157.64.200/focus/f-religion/895417/posts

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