The Forming of the Bible


#1

I am currently in dialogue with a Protestant. I'm looking for information and historical evidence regarding how the canon of the Bible was put together? I thought it was at the Councils of Hippo and Carthage. But now I'm not sure that these were actually councils but instead just local synods! My Protestant friend says the Bible was canonized in 170 AD. Shall I ask who he thinks did the "canonizing"?


#2

[quote="ClemtheCatholic, post:1, topic:333162"]
I am currently in dialogue with a Protestant. I'm looking for information and historical evidence regarding how the canon of the Bible was put together? I thought it was at the Councils of Hippo and Carthage. But now I'm not sure that these were actually councils but instead just local synods! My Protestant friend says the Bible was canonized in 170 AD. Shall I ask who he thinks did the "canonizing"?

[/quote]

Certainly!


#3

[quote="ClemtheCatholic, post:1, topic:333162"]
I am currently in dialogue with a Protestant. I'm looking for information and historical evidence regarding how the canon of the Bible was put together? I thought it was at the Councils of Hippo and Carthage. But now I'm not sure that these were actually councils but instead just local synods! My Protestant friend says the Bible was canonized in 170 AD. Shall I ask who he thinks did the "canonizing"?

[/quote]

That's a good start. the (Protestant) premise of Scripture being the ultimate authority is that "perfect" Scripture came from an "imperfect" church. It doesn't really make sense.

Another point is whatever the time after Christ's death, the period between the Resurrection and formation of the Canon (what the Bible is officially called), is what the church calls Tradition. If you accept Scripture, it is just logical that you would have to accept the remainder of, or at least look thoroughly at, the rest of early church Tradition and practice.


#4

[quote="ClemtheCatholic, post:1, topic:333162"]
I am currently in dialogue with a Protestant. I'm looking for information and historical evidence regarding how the canon of the Bible was put together? I thought it was at the Councils of Hippo and Carthage. But now I'm not sure that these were actually councils but instead just local synods! My Protestant friend says the Bible was canonized in 170 AD. Shall I ask who he thinks did the "canonizing"?

[/quote]

Your friend was also about 200 years off the mark as to the date that the Bible was canonized. It was more like 370 AD around the time Christianity finally became "legal" in the Roman Empire under Emperor Constantine. Church doctrine teaches that Hippo and Carthage actually were councils.


#5

This is a start: scripturehistory.com/


#6

Thanks guys! All good now. :slight_smile: It’s funny, he is now bringing up the whole petros-petra thing regarding Mt. 16:18. I learn that Protestants bring this up when I study apologetics, it’s funny to see them do it for real! :smiley:


#7

[quote="ClemtheCatholic, post:1, topic:333162"]
I am currently in dialogue with a Protestant. I'm looking for information and historical evidence regarding how the canon of the Bible was put together? I thought it was at the Councils of Hippo and Carthage. But now I'm not sure that these were actually councils but instead just local synods! My Protestant friend says the Bible was canonized in 170 AD. Shall I ask who he thinks did the "canonizing"?

[/quote]

Yes...definitely ask him who did, who came up with the list and why (ask him why was there a need to canonize in the first place).....and what was this person's authority? And was he catholic?

Ask him also why where the New Testament books called the New Testament? What was behind the name "New Testament"?

For insights as to why...listen to Dr. Hahn explain it here.....catholic.com/radio/shows/consuming-the-word-8596

As to the local synods...what is important to note is even though these were local in nature, the list that came out had Papal approval at the end...and were the basis for the Latin Vulgate...which has been the Catholic Bible since AD 400 or so.

Here is more.....catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/wbible.htm


#8

[quote="pablope, post:7, topic:333162"]
Yes...definitely ask him who did, who came up with the list and why (ask him why was there a need to canonize in the first place).....and what was this person's authority? And was he catholic?

As to the local synods...what is important to note is even though these were local in nature, the list that came out had Papal approval at the end...and were the basis for the Latin Vulgate...which has been the Catholic Bible since AD 400 or so.

Here is more.....catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/wbible.htm

[/quote]

Also ask him that if he agrees that the canon was approved and finalized in the early centuries of the Church, then why did Protestants then view the Deuterocanonicals as uninspired and later take them out of the Bible completely after the Protestant reformation. Surely if the Early Church saw them as inspired, they are, and should still be in the Protestant Bibles.


#9

The Protestant I am talking to blames most things on "Catholic Revisionist History" and redirects the discussion. Since he is a Protestant Minister until he finds it himself I doubt if I will convince him. Its somewhat easier to evangelize out own, who don't go to church.


#10

[quote="ChurchSoldier, post:3, topic:333162"]
That's a good start. the (Protestant) premise of Scripture being the ultimate authority is that "perfect" Scripture came from an "imperfect" church. It doesn't really make sense.

Another point is whatever the time after Christ's death, the period between the Resurrection and formation of the Canon (what the Bible is officially called), is what the church calls Tradition. If you accept Scripture, it is just logical that you would have to accept the remainder of, or at least look thoroughly at, the rest of early church Tradition and practice.

[/quote]

Yes, to read the Church Fathers is to stop being Protestant, A good book to buy or Check out is - FOUR WITNESSES Author, Rod Bennett.
Peace, Carlan


#11

[quote="hadulzo, post:9, topic:333162"]
The Protestant I am talking to blames most things on "Catholic Revisionist History" and redirects the discussion. Since he is a Protestant Minister until he finds it himself I doubt if I will convince him. Its somewhat easier to evangelize out own, who don't go to church.

[/quote]

You should recommend he get (or give him a copy of) Jimmy Akin's book The Fathers Know Best. Then he can read from a collection of writings from the early church fathers (using a protestant translation for the most part), which show that the early church was Catholic in its beliefs.


#12

I think it is valuable to understand what Protestants believe as far as the Church goes. First, they acknowledge that the Church was the steward of developing the New Testament Canon. But that was long before the Church became corrupt throughout the Middle Ages and beyond. In essence, Luther and others saved Christianity from the human depravity and error that had seeped in. Protestantism is the righteous continuation of the Church, not a splinter or unrelated offshoot.

They believe that Scripture is a gift of revelation from the Holy Spirit (not the Church). Any argument that suggests that the Catholic Church gave us Scripture is faulty, to say the least. On these points, I would agree.

Finally, they believe that Scripture alone in the ultimate authority because it is God's own word. As Catholics, we would respectfully disagree, here. We see God's revelation as presented through Scripture, Tradition and the teaching body of the Church, the Magisterium.

Some Protestants are quick to point out the matters of human frailty that existed just prior to the reformation...the greed, lust for power, and failure to effectively minister to God's people led to the reformation. I am convinced that the times we feel that (because of our sinfulness) God is very far away, he is right next to us. The Church is what she is not because of men but because of the love and mercy of God.

Walk and speak humbly. Protestants can be very holy people worthy of God's love. Though you may disagree on some points, resist the temptation to be better. Kind of like "My dad can beat your Dad up!" Rather, be open to what is being said. It's just possible that God is using that Protestant to teach you something...


#13

[quote="SoMissCatholic, post:11, topic:333162"]
You should recommend he get (or give him a copy of) Jimmy Akin's book The Fathers Know Best. Then he can read from a collection of writings from the early church fathers (using a protestant translation for the most part), which show that the early church was Catholic in its beliefs.

[/quote]

there is also a few books on libraries throughout the ages mentioning groups of Christians studying and promulgating sacred scripture from the 300's and before. Also Christian literature centers were practically the only ones that survived until the ninth century.

God bless You


#14

[quote="SoMissCatholic, post:11, topic:333162"]
You should recommend he get (or give him a copy of) Jimmy Akin's book The Fathers Know Best. Then he can read from a collection of writings from the early church fathers (using a protestant translation for the most part), which show that the early church was Catholic in its beliefs.

[/quote]

Another good resource would be Marcus Grodi's Coming Home Network which ministers to Protestant ministers who are considering converting to the Catholic Faith. They do lots of apologetic work for the Church. Also, www.churchmilitant.tv that has all sorts of Catholic videos on about any subject you could name on the Church.


#15

The books that actually are the inspired Word of God was decided by Pope Damasus at a Council of Rome in 382, confirmed at the Councils of Hippo, 393, Carthage III 397, Carthage !V in 419 and canonised at the Council of Trent (1545-1563).

BTW, Protestants lack seven books of the O.T., which is why most fail to believe in Purgatory and prayer for the departed, because they lack the authority of Christ through His Catholic Church.

Let us know of you need anything re Peter as Christ’s Vicar of His Church with Christ’s authority.


#16

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