The Great Chastisement is a heresy


#1

The future is not written in stone. The future is conditional. For God is not cruel but merciful.

The so-called “chastisement” is not inevitable. Just as the destruction of Jerusalem was not inevitable. Man can change, as the story of Jonah shows, and man by his prayers and penance can obtain Mercy and appease Justice.

Such is the teaching of the Church regarding prophesy and Divine Providence.


#2

Hmmm, I think I should have worded it better as: “The belief in an inevitable Great Chastisement is not in accordance to the Catholic Faith”. May God, who gave me the grace to do good, purify the good I have done poorly.


#3

In all charity . . . the subject line of this thread is grave error . . . and sadly shows a tragic ignorance of . . . Sacred Scripture . . . **the Holy Thoughts of God **. . . the Mind of Christ . . . God’s Holy :bible1: Word . . .

The Holy :bible1: Bible [size=]
Douay Rhiems Version Revised by Bishop Richard Challoner
[/size]

Revelations 6

**The Apocalypse Of Saint John
Chapter 6 **
**What followed upon opening six of the seals.

1 And I saw that the Lamb had opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures, as it were the voice of thunder, saying: Come, and see. 2 And I saw: and behold a white horse, and he that sat on him had a bow, and there was a crown given him, and he went forth conquering that he might conquer. 3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature, saying: Come, and see. 4 And there went out another horse that was red: and to him that sat thereon, it was given that he should take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another, and a great sword was given to him. 5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying: Come, and see. And behold a black horse, and he that sat on him had a pair of scales in his hand.

*2 “White horse”… He that sitteth on the white horse is Christ, going forth to subdue the world by his gospel. The other horses that follow represent the judgments and punishment that were to fall on the enemies of Christ and his church. The red horse signifies war; the black horse, famine; and the pale horse (which has Death for its rider), plagues or pestilence. *
6 And I heard as it were a voice in the midst of the four living creatures, saying: Two pounds of wheat for a penny, and thrice two pounds of barley for a penny, and see thou hurt not the wine and the oil. 7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature, saying: Come, and see. 8 And behold a pale horse, and he that sat upon him, his name was Death, and hell followed him. And power was given to him over the four parts of the earth, to kill with sword, with famine, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

9 “Under the altar”… Christ, as man, is this altar, under which the souls of the martyrs live in heaven, as their bodies are here deposited under our altars.
*10 “Revenge our blood”… They ask not this out of hatred to their enemies, but out of zeal for the glory of God, and a desire that the Lord would accelerate the general judgment, and the complete beatitude of all his elect. *
11 And white robes were given to every one of them one; and it was said to them, that they should rest for a little time, till their fellow servants, and their brethren, who are to be slain, even as they, should be filled up. 12 And I saw, when he had opened the sixth seal, and behold there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair: and the whole moon became as blood: 13 And the stars from heaven fell upon the earth, as the fig tree casteth its green figs when it is shaken by a great wind: 14 And the heaven departed as a book folded up: and every mountain, and the islands were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the princes, and tribunes, and the rich, and the strong, and every bondman, and every freeman, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of mountains:

16 And they say to the mountains and the rocks: Fall upon us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth upon the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of their wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand?

"To be ignorant of Scripture is to be ignorant of Christ."
- St. Jerome
[RIGHT]. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Blessed Lord Jesus+
. . . thank you Holy Mother Church+
. . . thank you Blessed St. Jerome+
[/RIGHT]


#4

What point are you trying to make? :confused:


#5

I think what Jesus_123 is saying is that he really, really disagrees with you on this point.


#6

My dear friend

The chastisement will come but because of mans sin and unnatural living it will be because of the demons and punishment from the equilibrium, not God. Just before the equilibrium finally annihilates us Jesus will return to spare us from the final chastisement which we bring on ourselves. God is Love and the most misunderstood Person of all. Why would God bring these great chastisements on all only to end them lest we all perish? It doesn’t make sense. Its because the chastisements are not from God. He is stopping the chastisements right now by holding back the equilibrium, but mercy has its limits. Less mercy from God means bad news for us I’m afraid.

God bless you and pray for me:thumbsup::slight_smile:

John


#7

Um, actually no it’s not heresy it’s official church teaching. Is the future written in stone? No not absolutly, but the Chatisment is a prophacy left with us by our Lord in Sacrade Scripture. There will be a Chastisment, there will be a second comming, there will be a new heaven and a new earth.

What is condemed by the church is the idea that the “chastisment” will be only for “non-christian/non-saved” individuals and will come in the form of all true believers being “raputred up out of the world” causing plane crashes/car crashes and all the other “haunted house” theatrics you get at your average “raputer house” and the left behind movies/books. Note: The Church doesn’t condem the idea that there will be a rapture. It condems any idea of a rapture which comes any day before the last day. Not the last day 1,000 years before the last day, not the second to last day, but the actual last day, on which Christ will come a second time ushering in a new Heaven and new Earth.


#8

The chastisement prophecied at certiain apparitions is not absolute but conditional. The future is not absolute but conditional. This is the Church’s teachings. This is what Cardinal Ratzinger said in his commentary on the secret of Fatima, if I’m not mistaken.

Please read these articles:
catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp
ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=299679&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2002&Author=&Keyword=chastisement&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=5&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=


#9

I think you are mixing up the “Rapture” with the “Chastisment”. Protistants make “the rapture” into “the chastisment” of only unbelivers. This is condemed. What is not condemed and in fact is taught is that there will be a chastisment. It was prophised by our Lord, God doesn’t lie. What is also not condemed is that there will be a “callign up into the clouds” or “rapture” of all beleivers on the last day.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P10S.HTM

16

For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together 4 with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Protistant theology comes from reading 1 Thessalonians 17 and ignoring 1 Thessalonians 16. First the dead in Christ will be called up, when does that happen? John 6 has the answer, as do the rest of the gospels many times over

vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PXE.HTM

44

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him **on the last day. **

THEN and only then

17

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together 4 with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.

So I think what you’re getting at, that is Evangelical understanding of “the rapture”, it’s function and relationship to the chastisment is in fact condemed. I agree with you, the protistant teachings are condemed. What is not condemed is that there will be an ending of the world, Christ will come again, and that his coming will be proceeded by a Chastisment, for everyone. Good Christians and evangalists for Satan alike. Just not in the sense that Protistants talk about it.

Edit
From your own link

With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though they do not generally use the word “rapture” to refer to this event (somewhat ironically, since the term “rapture” is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—“we will be caught up,” [Latin: rapiemur]).

This is what I’m talking about. Yes we will meet Christ when he is on his way to Earth on the last day to set up the new Heaven and New Earth. But Christ isn’t coming 2.5 times, 3 times, 1.5 times or any other number of times other than exactly 2 times. We will be “caught up” on the last day.


#10

By the way, I would recommend looking to the Catechism as the difinitive source of catholic teaching:

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt2art7.shtml

675
**Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.**574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576

676
The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatalogical judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.578

677
The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581


#11

Dear Nick

I will look at the articles soon. I think the timing is a mystery to us the same way God knows who will go to heaven and hell. We for our part must continue to live our lives and carry on not waiting for the end. But there will be a great chastisement under the reign of the antichrist and the events immediately before that. Its not God who’ll do this though. Its simply less mercy from God, not wrath. We bring these things on ourselves.

God bless you and pray for me:thumbsup::slight_smile:

John


#12

Our lady of Fatima did predict WWII and the spread of Communism throughout the world. and that did come true. Our Lady of Akita said that we had not heeded the warning of Fatima.
SO, if man does not repent, warnings may be fufilled …right?/I


#13

Eucharisted! Long time no see! :D Good to see you. . .

I haven't noticed mankind reforming or doing sufficient reparation to avert any chastisements recently. On the contrary, a good priest I listen to considers it impossible to avoid at this point, because the amount of sacrilege, blasphemy, impurity, especially in the Mass, is simply not something that the rosaries and devotions of people are going to be sufficient to outweigh.

Things keep getting worse and worse, rather than better and better morally..

So.. It's going to happen. And certainly nature and the heavens have been more troubled lately, which are the signs of it.


#14

Ah oops, I see, this is an old thread.


#15

[quote="Eucharisted, post:1, topic:173340"]
The future is not written in stone. The future is conditional. For God is not cruel but merciful. The so-called "chastisement" is not inevitable. Just as the destruction of Jerusalem was not inevitable. Man can change, as the story of Jonah shows, and man by his prayers and penance can obtain Mercy and appease Justice. Such is the teaching of the Church regarding prophesy and Divine Providence.

[/quote]

Although the Great Chastisement might not be in accordance to the Catholic Faith, it is Scriptural: "Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to deliver them on the day of the Lord’s wrath; and all the Earth will be devoured in fire" (Zepheniah 1 - 2). The Bible doesn’t say may or might, it reads “will”.

[quote="Eucharisted, post:2, topic:173340"]
Hmmm, I think I should have worded it better as: "The belief in an inevitable Great Chastisement is not in accordance to the Catholic Faith". May God, who gave me the grace to do good, purify the good I have done poorly.

[/quote]

Church Approved Apparitions assert it would take place “If men do not repent”. For example; Through a message given on October 13th (the anniversary day of the Miracle of the Sun and coinciding with the year of the Roe vs. Wade decision that became responsible for the deaths of over 55 million innocent unborn babies in the US alone), by Our most Holy Mother to Sister Agnes Katsuko Sasagawa in Akita, Japan (declared worthy of belief by Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict, as well as the Local Bishop Ito due to several supporting Miracles) we are told: "If men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such as one will never have seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only arms which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by My Son. Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the Bishops and the Priests”.

John Haffert, the founder of the Blue Army of Fatima believed that the Miracle of the Sun was a vision of the Great Chastisement, as witnesses to the Miracle described the fire from the sun falling to the Earth. There is another clue, the Miracle of the Sun lasted for ten minutes, the same time it takes light from the sun to reach the Earth. The Great Chastisement might be what is known as a super flair, regularly observed from stars. Scientists stated that if our sun emitted a super flair like other stars do, it would briefly engulf the inner planets.

ArguingWithAtheists.com/Pages/Modern_Miracles_Fatima.htm

God Bless


#16

@Insight,

The great chastisment does not offend Catholic theological sensibilities. The OP got confused with a protestant “doctrine” known as rapture theology which is condemed. The great chastisment and rapture theology are not one and the same, the former is supported by scripture and Church, the latter is supported by neither.


#17

It is these warnings from Our Lady of Fatima and Our Lady of Akita that worry me when
no one in America talks about sin an more. I am so tired of the situational morality that is considered “politically correct”. The father of lies is having a field day here in this 21st century. And he laughs as Catholics think that they are not sinners, and that God is too merciful to let them go to hell. I even went to one priest in confession who said don’t come so often (and it was Divine Mercy Sunday !).
As a sinner, I know I need the Grace of the Sacrament of Reconcilliation. We all do. I have not seen saints runnning around saying they were not sinners.
Mary would not have showed the children of Fatima a hell if it did not exist or was not a real possibility for so many souls to be consumed. For he who says he is not a sinner lies.
We need to consecrate ourselves to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary. We need to pray the rosary every day! The ROSARY is a weapon against Satan.
Too many Catholics do not think that not going to church on Sunday is a Mortal Sin. They do not think you can go to hell for that… or for abortions, or for sexual promiscuity, or for homosexual relationships…What happened to us today?
We are all sinners…all need the sacrament of reconcilliation…and all need to repent
None of us can get to Heaven by belief or our good deeds alone .
It is only by the blood of Jesus Christ and his Mercy that we can attain eternal salvation.
We must do as Jesus said: to** love God with your whole heart and soul, and to love others as He loves us…what a tall order!**


#18

@aileenbaker,

Could not agree more, I've run into this my self as has my wife.


#19

The Great Chastisement may be Solar in nature. A solar flare of gigantic proportions would achieve all of the effects described at Fatima (with the miracle of the sun) and Akita - both of which are approved by the Church.

 I see no reason why a chastisement would not be right around the corner for humanity.  Immorality is widespread throughout the whole world and evil has corrupted entire governments and nations.  

 Also, the sun is showing signs of friskiness lately and time may be short!

#20

In all, I don't believe that God will send a chastisement and I don't believe he ever does. Instead, whatever comes will be the natural consequence for sin.

When we sin, we move ourselves away from God, not Him from us.

As Pope John Paul II taught about hell where he said God does not send souls to hell, but they go there on their own, as a result of their rejection of God.

So it is with sin.

The world is so full of sin today and outright rejection of God, I can see where the world will suffer the consequences of turning from God.

In the end however, in His mercy, God will once again send Jesus to redeem the world through his glory.

I may be theologically wrong, but I don't see a God who is full of love and mercy, sending suffering to the world. I believe this way of thinking comes from Satan in order to get people to reject and hate the thought of God.

Jim


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