The Great Tribulation


#1

How does the Church view the Great Tribulation are the seals, trumpets, and bowls depicted in the book of Revelation to be taken literal or symbolic? I know they take the reign of the Beast (Antichrist) literal and that lasts for 3 ½ years so will these things happen (if they happen) occur within that time frame?


#2

Only the Messiah can show you what is symbolic and what is litteral in the religious books, that is the mystery. Every church has a slightly different opinion about who and what Jesus was. He said, " I am who you say I am" which covers all written word with his interpretation.

The sixth trumpet or revealing of the Anti Christ is the leader of this global mess at this point in time. George W. Bush has the honors of being the furthest off biblical recommendations.

His operating system is the most wasteful and that is the ultimate crime against humanity.

Seven bowls and seven angels come into view when you hear the seventh trumpet.


#3

When you say the “Great Tribulation” you may be referring to what fundamentalist dispensationalists call the 7 years of Tribulation. This is not specified in Revelation though some reference to a “seven” is mentioned in Daniel. Regardless, there is no biblical basis for a specific Seven Years of Tribulation. However, some of the early Church fathers hinted and speculated at 3 and a half years of persecution on the Church by the Antichrist.
P7


#4

I agree with you on George Bush, however I base it on the fact that many people hate him. The Antichrist will be openly welcoming to the world. If evil ever rendered it’s true form people would run from it. So look for something that is too good to be true, and keep an eye on where it is trying to lead you. BTW I like George at least he has convictions he may not always be right. Anyhow that is my thought on the matter.

God Bless
Kathleen


#5

[quote=starrs0]How does the Church view the Great Tribulation are the seals, trumpets, and bowls depicted in the book of Revelation to be taken literal or symbolic? I know they take the reign of the Beast (Antichrist) literal and that lasts for 3 ½ years so will these things happen (if they happen) occur within that time frame?

[/quote]

There is no definitive Church position on the interpretation of the book of Revelation, including a 7-year Tribulation and literal reign of Antichrist.

There is a wealth of theological speculation, however. But be careful not to mix speculation with Church defined doctrine or dogma.

For a thorough treatment of the End Times, focusing specifically on the Rapture, I suggest you pick up and read Dr. Thigpen’s The Rapture Trap. It is an excellent book and thoroughly approaches the topic from a sound Biblical perspective.

Peace,
javelin


#6

[quote=starrs0]How does the Church view the Great Tribulation are the seals, trumpets, and bowls depicted in the book of Revelation to be taken literal or symbolic? I know they take the reign of the Beast (Antichrist) literal and that lasts for 3 ½ years so will these things happen (if they happen) occur within that time frame?

[/quote]

As far as I know, the Church has not taken a stand on this specific piece of speculation, but her general attitude is not give credence to interpretations of prophecy that attempt to tie in to contemporary events. The landscape of history --especially in the last 200 years --is littered with these speculations–all of them wrong.

It is only the last two chapters of Revelation that are concerned at all with the “End Times.” Even many Catholics these days, probably from being exposed to the error-laced “Left Behind” theology, have got so caught up in the silly prognosticating of Protestant Dispensationalists that they erroneously try to find “clues” in Revelation and other prophetic books like they are not prophecy, but puzzles, that anyone can figure out. Sorry to come across as harsh and ruin the fun, but I am adamantly opposed to anything that dumbs down and trivializes the Faith.

To get a proper Catholic understanding of Biblical prophecy, I recommend the following resources:

Online Articles:
catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9510ntg.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0209fea5.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812chap.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9705chap.asp

Other Resources:
“Introduction to Prophecy,” CD series by Steve Wood
familylifecenter.net/car…3&user=56193243

“Rapture: The End Times Error That Leaves The Truth Behind,” by David Curie
amazon.com/gp/product/19…glance&n=283155

“The Rapture Trap,” by Paul Thigpen (study guide available)
amazon.com/gp/product/09…glance&n=283155

The Navarre Bible Commentary On The Book of Revelation
amazon.com/gp/product/18…glance&n=283155

“The End: The Book of Revelation,” tape/CD series by Scott Hahn (study guide available)
saintjoe.com/p/prod_desc.pl?id=169

“Will Catholics Be Left Behind?” by Carl Olsen
carl-olson.com/wcblb_home.html


#7

Bobkat,

Are you saying that when a perfect leader with all the qualifications that GW Bush and the rest of the world leaders do not have steps forward you should run as if he is too good to be true?
Just compare what the Messiah did by himself to what the Anti Christ and all his friends have been doing for centuries. Look at the facts and compare complexity and chaos to simplicity prosperity and peace. And expect a simple system to be presented that solves all the problems this worlds systems and leaders cannot.


#8

The Catholic church firmly denies the fundamentalist idea of a rapture of Christians to avoid the end-times tribulation, and of a literal pre-millennial 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth before the judgement.

The position of the Church (and the original position of the protestant reformers) is Amillennial, in other words the “Millennium” is the present age of the Church. Therefore many of the tribulations of Revelation have already happened. others are yet to come however, including a final (often thought to be 3 and a half year) period of tribulation.

The catholic view of end-times is that of Jesus’s discourse on this topic in Matthew 24.


#9

[quote=Jake99]Bobkat,

Are you saying that when a perfect leader with all the qualifications that GW Bush and the rest of the world leaders do not have steps forward you should run as if he is too good to be true?
Just compare what the Messiah did by himself to what the Anti Christ and all his friends have been doing for centuries. Look at the facts and compare complexity and chaos to simplicity prosperity and peace. And expect a simple system to be presented that solves all the problems this worlds systems and leaders cannot.
[/quote]

I think the idea is that those who adhere to the precepts of the secular world will adore antichrist, while those who see with eyes of faith will not be so easily deceived. President Bush is detested by many precisely because his attitudes on certain issues are at odds with the prevailing worldly attitudes many have today. That does not fit the traditional idea of Antichrist.

Peace,
javelin


#10

Axion: I’m not interested in the Churches views on some mythical Rapture what I’m interested in is how the Church view the seals trumpets and bowls of Revelation will these things actually happen during the Tribulation? (for instance when the first trumpet is blown and blood, hail and fire rain down buring a third of all grass and trees) or are they all some kind of symbolic thing?


#11

[quote=javelin]I think the idea is that those who adhere to the precepts of the secular world will adore antichrist, while those who see with eyes of faith will not be so easily deceived. President Bush is detested by many precisely because his attitudes on certain issues are at odds with the prevailing worldly attitudes many have today. That does not fit the traditional idea of Antichrist.

Peace,
javelin
[/quote]

GW Bush and all those before him no matter what party, have endorsed the same systems, all of which are highly discouraged by the words of Jesus. Everyone is standing behing the Anti Christ regardless of which person has been in charge.

Gambling is encouraged: Stock market, lotteries, casinos

Everything that belongs to God ( land) has been sold to the highest bidder, rather than being professionally managed.

Every country has drawn lines on the map and protected it with militaries.

The sale of skin is considered an acceptable way of making a living. Prostitution, pornography, the sale of babies.

This is Satans world, and he and the worlds leaders are destroying this planet at an alarming rate.The systems in use are wasting and destroying resourses as well as harming people and the environment. The earth according to the International Energy Agency will run so low on current fuel supplies within 10 years that it will be a fight for survival for everyone.

We now have the Internet which could eliminate the wasteful systems like sales and marketting and could standardize currencies, wages and prices. That would eliminate much of the energy and manpower waste.


#12

[quote=starrs0] I know they take the reign of the Beast (Antichrist) literal and that lasts for 3 ½ years

[/quote]

sez who? may I ask where you got this information that the Catholic church takes this literally?


#13

Says the early Church Fathers they all expected a literal Antichrist read Trial Tribulation and Triumph by Desmond A. Birch as well as this: catholic.com/library/The_Antichrist.asp


#14

If the Popes were leading this world in the right direction it would not be as it is. Not one thing did Pope JP II do that was effective in changing anything, and people loved him. And that says nothing of all the clergy sex abuse that was rampant, known and hidden on his watch. And everyone in his church rules with weapons of mass destruction and wrecks the planet like its OK. No one seems to understand what Jesus said, otherwise it would be done.


#15

[quote=Jake99]If the Popes were leading this world in the right direction it would not be as

. And everyone in his church rules with weapons of mass destruction and wrecks the planet like its OK. .
[/quote]

this is in reference to what on this thread? since when are the popes the leaders in this world? may I ask where the Vatican has its weapons of mass destruction stored? do we need UN inspectors in there? why can’t we just blame GW for the ills of the world, everybody else does, and what has any of this to do with OP?


#16

[quote=starrs0]Says the early Church Fathers they all expected a literal Antichrist read Trial Tribulation and Triumph by Desmond A. Birch as well as this: .asp
[/quote]

never heard of Desmond Birch and am not finding him on a list of early Popes or Church fathers, need help here. link was not very helpful just a rehash of same old on this topic. you have been given some great links and sources elsewhere in this thread, and perhaps the debate would be better served if we took some time out to consult “the rapture Trap” and other reliable sources before contintuing the discussion.


#17

[quote=starrs0]How does the Church view the Great Tribulation are the seals, trumpets, and bowls depicted in the book of Revelation to be taken literal or symbolic? I know they take the reign of the Beast (Antichrist) literal and that lasts for 3 ½ years so will these things happen (if they happen) occur within that time frame?

[/quote]

The absolute best information out there for Catholics today is in Dave Currie’s recent book (2003) published by Sophia Institute Press and available at amazon. This book leaves all the others behind. Check out the reviews at Amazon.

Rapture: The End-Times Error that Leaves the Bible Behind

It would take years of study and reading difficult texts to find what Mr Currie has put together in one easily readable book. He cover’s all the ‘end-time’ verses, of Daniel, Apocalypse, the Olivet Discourse etc from the
catholic viewpoint, covering all the early church writings of the early fathers, secular historians, and other works of the early church.

The book was originally written to expose the errors, scripture twisting and heresies of the new ‘end-time’ rapturist, left-behind mentality flooding us today…but I barely touch on what you will really learn…and you will also learn the why of all this.

His incredible knowledge of scripture and the early languages will give deep insights. I have read all the others suggested here, but this one far surpasses them all.

In the forward, Scott Hahn says that Dave has done something truly remarkable here…I agree. He truly has.

starrsO…all you questions will be answered…Enjoy!


#18

Asquared: Desmond Birch isn’t a Pope or Chruch Father he is a modern day author that wrote a book on the Minor Chastisment , the Age of Peace and Antichrist. you can find it on Amazon. amazon.com/gp/product/1882972732/sr=1-1/qid=1138293801/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-2784703-3009652?%5Fencoding=UTF8


#19

[quote=Jake99]Bobkat,

Are you saying that when a perfect leader with all the qualifications that GW Bush and the rest of the world leaders do not have steps forward you should run as if he is too good to be true?
Just compare what the Messiah did by himself to what the Anti Christ and all his friends have been doing for centuries. Look at the facts and compare complexity and chaos to simplicity prosperity and peace. And expect a simple system to be presented that solves all the problems this worlds systems and leaders cannot.
[/quote]

No what I am saying is that GW doesn’t fit the profile by a long shot. He has always been in the spotlight and he is openly disliked by way too many to ever be considered a canidate for the Anitchrist. I believe that when the Anitchrist comes those deep in the faith will know it’s kinda of like an intution. This person will come when the world is full of chaos and turmoil with empathy and solutions this doesn’t mean perfection by no means. BTW no perfect leaders ever until Jesus comes back to claim what is His than and only than will we have a perfect leader. Sorry if I was confusing.

God Bless
Kathleen


#20

Everyone that endorses the operational systems of this world is the Anti Christ, GW just happens to be the world leader at this point in time. This world operates in the opposite manner in which Jesus recommended, thus is Satans world.

How will you know the difference between the global system that Bill and Hillary Clinton are proposing from that of what Jesus proposes? Bill and Hillary want to unify the current complex, chaotic, destructive operating system, and Jesus wants to destroy it and install his own system. You are either with the terrorists or you are with Jesus, regardless of whoever you elect that is of this world. We are in the Great Tribulation and the time to choose draws near. I suggest you compare facts, miracles and prophecies, for Jesus leads by example, and so does Satan.


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