The Holy Fire Miracle


#62

In response to the latter part of this thread, the differences between the EO Churches and the Catholic Church often amount to be the EOs misrepresenting our doctrine (e.g. saying we mean two spirations by inserting the Filioque when we do not). Other things tend to be new objections created by neo-palamite bias against anything that appears to have a tinge of Augustine/Latin/Scholasticism (e.g. objections to original sin, indulgences, the numbering of the sacraments, etc. which were never a point of contention until the mid to late 19th century). Studying the EO synods post-schism, but prior to the neo-palamite movement shows an acceptance of most that is now supposedly rejected.

It’s also difficult to pin down one common doctrine among the EO Churches on various issues. Livenotonevil’s posts are good example of this. Some of the things he is promoting (like no grace outside the EO Churches) are by no means an agreed upon truth among them.

That being said, Catholics can also be guilty of misrepresenting our relationship to the EOs. While they can be said to have a relationship to the Church based on a common baptism and other sacraments, they cannot be said to be “part of the Church.” The one Church professed in the Creed can only be said to be the Catholic Church (branch theory is not a valid perspective under Catholic doctrine). In other words, the Church of Christ can only be said to subsist in the Catholic Church, not anywhere else.


#63

An orthodox priest told me catholics tried to do mass and get fire but they don’t. I think he is not the only one who talks like that, maybe is a way they have to say you catholics are not blessed. I feel is a way to say this church is true your is not. I think js very bad in his part cause he can do masses here in spain cause catholic lend borrow a part of the parish.

Maybe im judging him cause i dont know his intentions but bros, catholic resoects orthodox in general i feel like most of them dont respect us.

Btw look at white phosphorus


#64

Btw look at the date white phosphorus was discovered, and the video i shared with you all.


#65

Naphtha was well known in ancient days, and it would spontaneously combust. The Holy Fire could have been achieved with naphtha right from the beginning. It is even mentioned in 2 Maccabees 1: 19-36:

For when our ancestors were being led captive to Persia, the pious priests of that time took some of the fire of the altar and secretly hid it in the hollow of a dry cistern, where they took such precautions that the place was unknown to anyone. But after many years had passed, when it pleased God, Nehemiah, having been commissioned by the king of Persia, sent the descendants of the priests who had hidden the fire to get it. And when they reported to us that they had not found fire but only a thick liquid, he ordered them to dip it out and bring it.

When the materials for the sacrifices were presented, Nehemiah ordered the priests to sprinkle the liquid on the wood and on the things laid upon it. When this had been done and some time had passed, and when the sun, which had been clouded over, shone out, a great fire blazed up, so that all marvelled…

Then the priests sang the hymns. After the materials of the sacrifice had been consumed, Nehemiah ordered that the liquid that was left should be poured on large stones. When this was done, a flame blazed up; but when the light from the altar shone back, it went out…

Nehemiah and his associates called this “nephthar,” which means purification, but by most people it is called naphtha.


#66

In real life, generally speaking, Orthodox respect Catholics and vice a versa.

It’s usually only on the interwebz where you have Hyperdox Hermans battling “Catholics” who are more Catholic than the Pope and vice a versa.

The Eastern Orthodox themselves are routinely belittled and do battle with fellow EO who suffer from “prelest” (a type of spiritual pride - the Pharisees, in general, suffered from severe prelest) - the Priest who was teaching me at the Russian Orthodox parish where I was a catechumen told me one day when I was talking with him that “the monks at such and such monastery (which was a canonical RO monastery) regard us as heretics because we use the Gregorian calendar and kneel on Sundays” - think of the insanity of that. The parish where I was attending, almost everyone there had warm things to say about the RCC and they knew I was a Catholic converting to Orthodoxy, never once did I hear a bad word about Catholicism - some refutation of Catholic teaching, but always very respectful and charitable.


#67

Brother with respect you can refute what ever you want. What I dont like this kind of bragging I see in Spain in the orthodox part. .

The priest I’m talking is a man who has no house here, has no parish, no wage because the greek patriarchy say it’s with economical problems. Roman catholic gave him a house, gave him a parish and finally gave them a work and a wage.

I see horrible this man comes bragging that we only have the fire catholics dont. I got no problem with the fire God can do whatever he wants to whoever he pleases. But it get on my nerves. In my city Barcelona orthodox can do something cause roman catholics hepls them and endorse them before goverment laws and they are very disrespectful. And that priest who RC gave him all what he has here should be diferent.


#68

If the man is bragging, then he’s committing the sin of pride. Pray for him and don’t worry about it.


#69

But if you brag agaisnt the ppl who gave you house, parish and work. Its heinous


#70

Eh, maybe he is embarrassed that he had to have help and he wants to make himself feel more important. Anyway we are supposed to forgive people’s heinous acts too, just pray for him, it sounds like he needs it.


#71

Btw The priest im talking was monk at mount athos he told me they could not eat in the same table than the non orthdox. In general I know orthdox ppl and i love them but priest in general i feel them very anti catholic. Moreover the russian patriarchy was risen by stalin 4th December 1943 since then they are the puppets of the government, wether stalinf, yetslin or Putin. I appreciate kyril for how he talks against sexual sins and all of that but he can not stand for ppl who get abused under putin regim.


#72

Yes, but i dont know if we should help them to have a cult. Let them their patriarchies help each other. We are collaborating in giving a place to adoctrinate against catholics.


#73

It seems to me you yourself harbor some anti-Orthodox animosity.

The Eastern Orthodox are by no means a “cult”.

They are a Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Orthodox Christian Church. The only mark they don’t have is Oneness due to the fact they are technically in schism from the Holy See of Rome.

They are so close to Communion with us, it would be VERY easy for them to enter into full communion once again. The only reason it hasn’t happened yet is because the Greeks and Slavs are very… stubborn.

His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I is a very close friend and brother to His Holiness Pope Francis.


#74

Bartholomew is a great man. I dont have any animosity. Read again what i said about the greek priest he gets house, parish and work. And he bashes rc. We should stop helping our enemies in that sense. In Spain orthodox priest come here broken take profit of the good catholic bishops in order to get favor and then they bash rc.


#75

Btw in Spanish cult =culto means any religious service. So maybe you misunderstood my point due to my barrier on language


#76

So he should sell out his beliefs for the house and wage? And i doubt Rome pays wages to the Orthodox priests. lol


#77

He shoudls not accepts money and favors from ppl whom according to him are that bad. Thats my opinion, they gave him a workd in doind administration of some issue.


#78

Just because he said that Catholics cant obtain Holy Fire, that does not mean he is speaking bad things. He would be bad priest if he was ashamed to promote his Church.


#79

He did not only say that, i know him for a while.


#80

This topic was automatically closed 14 days after the last reply. New replies are no longer allowed.


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.