The HUUUGE difference between CATHOLIC and ROMAN CATHOLIC


#1

There are lots of people coming in here talking about things like the RCC, the ROMAN THIS, ROMAN THAT, ROMANIZING THE EARLY CHURCH, ROMANISM, ROMAN CATHOLICISM, ROMAN ETC, ETC, ETC. I’m here to set the record straight. Unlike some of you, who obviously have no problem with it, I get all in a fluster when people talk about the things listed above in capitols when referring to the entire Catholic Church. Why do I have a hissy fit when people do this? It’s an absolute butchering of terminology and it shows how ignorant they really are of the church when they do this because they fail to acknowledge out of ignorance, or out of inconsideration that the ENTIRE CHURCH is not ROMAN CATHOLIC. Let me give you an explanation on WHY this isn’t so. Christ told the apostles to go teach ALL nations. Naturally, since they were in the middle east and they naturally didn’t stay all bunched up because they needed to go to ALL nations, they split up and went in different places. Peter and Paul, two most well known apostles, went to Rome and were martyred. Other apostels, went south, to areas of Africa. Others went north, and others went East, even so far as to the FAR east to preach the gospel. They all held to the same lord, same faith, same baptism. They didn’t split in any of those areas, though, the only thing that they didn’t have in common was their DEVOTIONS, DISCIPLINES, AND RITUALS. They did things differently, but they never changed their faith. From the word RITUAL, we get the word RITE. Rite can mean one of two things, it can mean

ONE- a ritual itself
or
TWO-a group or branch of ways of practicing certain rituals

As the faith spread, even though the faith didn’t change, people’s ways of doing things, mostly depending on their culture, were different. As a result, we find many different rites who are all in communion with the Pope and the rest of the church, though, they have different rubrics for the mass, different ways to give blessings, different devotions, different disciplinary acts. For an example, even though there are some latin rite Catholic priests, who marry, marriage for eastern rite Catholic priests is the NORM.

Don’t make any mistakes in believing that for this reason the church isn’t one, it is one. The church just has different practices in different areas. There’s nothing different about what we believe as a whole, that is in the one true faith.

So when referring to the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC CHURCH AS A WHOLE, please says simply CATHOLIC.

When referring ONLY to the LATIN RITE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, please feel free to say ROMAN CATHOLIC.

It just makes for bad terminology when people make simple mistakes like this.


#2

Wow. Are you mad! Well, I’m sorry if I’ve done any of those things. It’s entirely possible. I think that part of the reason these boards exist is to teach us how to be apologists. So every once in a while we need a little slap on the behind to get us back in line and teach us humility.

I have been in the church for approx. 2 1/2 years. I have received such an education by reading these posts. I think that I am getting training on different thinking, different personalities and different aspects of the faith so I thank you for this correction.


#3

Dear CC:

For an example, even though there are some latin rite Catholic priests, who marry, marriage for eastern rite Catholic priests is the NORM.

Correction, please.

Latin Rite priests cannot marry before or after ordination. All major seminarians and priests in the Roman Catholic Church are required to be celibate: THAT is our Church discipline, OUR tradition.

However, widowers (obviously were married) can become Latin Rite priests and converts, who are married, may become Latin Rite priests by special dispensation. Anglican and Lutheran pastors have been granted this dispensation.

On the Eastern front, married seminarians are and can be ordained to the priesthood. However, unmarried seminarians, once ordained priests, cannot marry. Upon the death of their spouse, married Eastern Catholic priests cannot remarry.

Monks and Bishops in the Eastern Catholic Churches are, likewise, celibate.


#4

What is the problem? (what rite of Catholicism are you?)

(Doctrinally, there is no difference.)


#5

There are some 26 Churches, with 6 rites that make up the Catholic Church. The rites are:
Latin—Sts. Peter and Paul
Alexandrian–St. Mark
Antiochene–St. James
Armenian----St. Basil
Chaldean–from Antiochene
Byzantine–Sts. James, Basil and others
All are fully Catholic and follow the Pope.
Go to this site to see where these Churches are mostly located.
credo.stormloader.com/ritesofc.htm


#6

[quote=Amadeus]Dear CC:

Correction, please.

Latin Rite priests cannot marry before and after ordination. All major seminarians and priests in the Roman Catholic Church are required to be celibate: THAT is our Church discipline, OUR tradition.

However, widowers (obviously were married) can become Latin Rite priests and converts, who are married, may become Latin Rite priests by special dispensation. Anglican and Lutheran pastors have been granted this dispensation.

On the Eastern front, married seminarians are and can be ordained to the priesthood. However, unmarried seminarians, once ordained priests, cannot marry. Upon the death of their spouse, married Eastern Catholic priests cannot remarry.

Monks and Bishops in the Eastern Catholic Churches are, likewise, celibate.
[/quote]

Excuse me, I know of a priest who was ordained just last year who was married. I think I know what I’m talking about.


#7

Corpus Cristi–I hear your point but the fact of the matter is that the Roman Catholic Church is the “huuuge” majority of the entire Catholic Church, isn’t it? My sense is we are talking upwards of 90 percent of Catholics in the world are Roman Catholic. So while you are educating us, would you be more specific what the other components are? I believe the Byzantine Church is a Catholic Church but not Roman Catholic, and some but not all orthodox churches are. For example, Russian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox are not Catholic but separate. Finally, I don’t know what part of the country you live in, but I noticed that when we were traveling out west this summer that Catholic churches called themselves “St. XXX Catholic Church” in contrast to the NY/NJ/Penn. area where churches are usually known as “St. XXX Roman Catholic Church.” I could be mistaken but it seems there are regional differences just in the US.


#8

[quote=E.E.N.S.]What is the problem? (what rite of Catholicism are you?)

(Doctrinally, there is no difference.)
[/quote]

The problem is that there are people coming in here not knowing what they’re talking about, but letting their mouths run over, making too much emphasis on the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, thinking that the whole church all over the world is Roman Catholic. That however isn’t the case, and some people need to learn better terminology. As for the rite I belong to, it’s the Latin Rite. :smiley:


#9

You are right…I agree that most people don’t fully understand. I was confused when you said HUUUUGE difference, thinking that you may have meant doctrinally speaking. (And I am now guessing that you did NOT mean that, right?)


#10

Exactly.


#11

[quote=Corpus Cristi]The problem is that there are people coming in here not knowing what they’re talking about, but letting their mouths run over, making too much emphasis on the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, thinking that the whole church all over the world is Roman Catholic. That however isn’t the case, and some people need to learn better terminology. As for the rite I belong to, it’s the Latin Rite. :smiley:
[/quote]

Well, people here are learning. People are people, yes? If we are to learn apologetics then we have to learn how to deal with all kinds of people. Try not to let it get your goat.

BTW, the married priest you were talking about. Was he a convert? He has to be an exception, doesn’t he? Otherwise why would there be a controversy about priests being celibate?


#12

I don’t know if he was a convert.


#13

CC,
No need to get your shorts in a bunch. This is not the politics forum and 99% of the people here are willing to learn and be corrected but not by being yelled at. Being a convert, I knew nothing except The Roman rite until my daughter married a Maronite. I have been to a couple of their services and they are beautiful, just wish they were in English but they were in Arabic, the native language of the parishioners. :slight_smile:


#14

I hear what you are saying, Corpus Christi, and I am in agreement with you up to a point. The problem as I see it is that there is no good term to describe the Catholic Church (as in, the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church) that does not in some manner make reference to Rome. That is, if we say “the Catholic Church” instead of “the Roman Catholic Church” then old Catholics have a crafty habit of counting themselves as included in the term. Knowing that schismatics like the Orthodox or the old Catholics are not part of the body of Christ, one tries to clarify by specifying “the Church in communion with Rome.”

I realize that this is not quite the same thing as the “Roman Catholic Church,” but I am sure you will grant that it is understandable that someone might use the term “Roman Catholic Church” or even “RCC” as a convenient shorthand for “the Church in communion with Rome.” If anyone could suggest a good, short term which includes everyone who should be included (Romans, Maronites, Byzantines, Armenians, etc) and excludes everyone who should be excluded (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Polish National Catholics, etc) I would be happy to use it, but so far I have not seen any such term.


#15

I have often heard that the term “Roman Church,” when used officially, means only the archdiocese of Rome. However …

Doesn’t Pope St. Pius X state in his Catechism: “no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church?” He also wrote:

**20 Q: And why is the true Church called Roman? **

A: The true Church is called Roman, because the four marks of Unity, Sanctity, Catholicity and Apostolicity are found in that Church alone which acknowledges as Head the Bishop of Rome, the Successor of St. Peter. (Catechism of Pius X)

Obviously Pope Pius X was not simply referring to the Roman Church" as only the diocese of Rome, or the Roman Rite, but to the universal Church called “Roman.”

Pope Pius XII also refers to the universal Church, as “Roman” …

If we would define and describe this true Church of Jesus Christ*—which is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church—*we shall find nothing more noble, more sublime, or more divine than the expression “the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ” (Pius XII, *Mystici Corporis Christi *(1943), 13)

I think you are getting all spun up about nothing. If Pope Pius X and Pius XII can call the universal Church “Roman,” I don’t have a problem with others doing so.


#16

[quote=Corpus Cristi]There are lots of people coming in here talking about things like the RCC, the ROMAN THIS, ROMAN THAT, ROMANIZING THE EARLY CHURCH, ROMANISM, ROMAN CATHOLICISM, ROMAN ETC, ETC, ETC.
[/quote]

Amen to everything that you say, but a note on my usage of these terms.

I am most familiar with the Latin Rite. So I am comfortable speaking about it specifically. I concede that there may be subtle shades of difference between Rites - not anything that would result in Schism, but shades of difference.

Therefore, I do not presume to speak of my experiences sometimes in terms of Catholic, but rather Roman Catholic, as this is what I know.

However, you are exactly right, and I accept the validity and effacacy of the other Rites of the Catholic Church.


#17

Errrrr… here’s another pope calling the universal Church “Roman,” Pius IX (must be somethin’ about the name “Pius”) … :slight_smile:

Pius IX, *Singulari Quadem, *1854:

“It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)


#18

From a pope not named “Pius” (and prior to Protestantism) …

Pope Innocent III, Eius Exemplo, (1208):

With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved." (Denzinger 423)


#19

This has been a point of confusion for me too.

I had it explained to me that all of the rites “in communion with Rome” were part of the Roman Catholic Church. Most common to us in the US is the Latin Rite but also including the Byzantine, Alexandrian, Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, Maronite, Chaldean etc.

Complicating this is that within the Latin Rite, there is a Roman Liturgical tradition which I think is called this because it is based on the Roman cannon.

Is this not correct?


#20

Dear Lance:

There are only 23 Churches in the Catholic Communion: 1 Western: the Roman Catholic Church (Latin or Roman Rite, with “uses”), and 22 Eastern Catholic Churches of vaious sub-rites (rescensions) of the major Eastern Rites (Antiochian, Byzantine/Constantinopolitan, and Alexandrian).


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