The Immaculate Conception & the Bible

**Alternate title; Mary had a little Lamb (of God).

(Please note that apparently I broke the character limit. This will be broken up into three posts).


As Catholics we hold a special place of honour for our Mother, Mary. This can be somewhat confusing to non-Catholics, who have several misconceptions and questions regarding Marian devotions. They question as to why Mary is held in such high regard. They ask why we ask her for prayers. In some cases they even say “you pray to Mary and worship her”. And that the Catholic position on Mary is squarely Biblical. Oddly enough, the Biblical passage in question is not within the Gospel of Luke.

To understand Mary, we must know her story. And Mary’s story goes back before the Gospels. It goes back before the prophets. It goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden and the dawn of Man.

God creates the world, and he creates man. Man was not complete, so he created a woman. Man and woman he created them, in His image. Sadly, original sin happened, and humanity began to descend into a downward spiral. God still shows us His perfect love, but for a few years (ie; every year ever) humanity continues to mess up. And after all of that, God eventually says; “it’s time to set things right. I’ve sent JUDGES. I sent PROPHETS. I gave them KINGS. I freed them from slavery. And STILL they turn away from Me. Enough is enough”.

“It’s time. To. Set. Things. Right.”

So thus it begins. Things begin to fall into place the way of the Lord is prepared. To the point where God even sends us one last time a prophet. John the Baptist, the last of the Old Prophets. God is going to send us His Son. To do this though, preparations must be made. The first is that Jesus will fitful the old law. He is the New Covenant. And like the Old Covenant, an Ark must be prepared. The old Arc was revered and honoured by the Jewish Nation. Christ Jesus knows this, and knows that as the New Covenant HIS Ark will be treated likewise. So His Ark, a woman, must be prepared for this role and worthy of such honour.

Second, Christ is also the new Adam. He has come to bring us back to the way we were before the Fall of Man. But the Hypostatic Union (Jesus Christ being fully God and fully Man) only covers the role of Adam. There must be an Eve to balance the equation, yet it must be done in such a way as to not place her on equal level with God, as there is only one God and one God alone. She must be worthy of of honour, but not of divine worship and adoration (lest it goes to her head and pride takes over). These two points dovetail nicely and mesh well together. God sees this plan and like it. He’s God, so it’s all falling into place. God is happy.

Now, Satan knows this is all coming. And he knows that he cannot win a battle against Jesus Christ. He’s already tried this and failed miserably. And after several attempts to sway humanity over to his side, he knows time is running out. Jesus Christ is soon coming to earth, and when He does the Devil is going to have some problems. So there’s only one thing left for him to do at this point. He needs to prevent Jesus Christ from coming to earth at all, without confronting Him directly. And how can he prevent this from happening? The answer makes sense when you think about it using a simple analogy:

Rip Hunter is a hero in DC Comics. He’s a Time Master, charged with protecting the “time stream” from those who would try to change the past. Rip Hunter, however, is not his real name. It’s a fake name, used to protect his family and by proxy himself. Rup Hunter, you see, comes from the future and travels throughout time stopping villains. If you are a super-villains and you want to kill the time traveling Rip Hunter, the man stopping you from your goals of world conquest, what’s the best way to do it?

Travel in time yourself, find Rip Hunter’s parents/ancestors, and kill them so you prevent his existence.

This is what Satan must do. He can’t touch Jesus so he needs to go after His family. And the thing is, at this point he can’t even go after the dad. Jesus Christ was conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God of course, so the Devil can’t touch that. So he’s left with only one option; he needs to go after the woman. He needs to go after Mary, human being that she is. He needs to go after her with everything he’s got. Mary, without question was going to go through the most spiritual attacks than anyone in history. The temptations she was to face would surpass any in the history of humanity. At all costs Satan must destroy her. God knows this, of course. He knows He must protect Mary from Satan, sin, and temptation. And this is where Revelations 12 comes into play;

A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

It’s clear that this Child is Jesus Christ, who as we know rules over us all as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. It’s pretty clear the dragon is Satan. Some people say the woman is “the mother Church”, but to me that makes no sense. Jesus made the Church. If “the Church” gave birth to Jesus…then in a sense the Church made Jesus, which isn’t true. That makes little sense even in a symbolic/metaphorical sense. Also in the passage, it is also quite clear that the dragon in question means some business. It is the next piece of the passage which is of interest;

***The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.


A place prepared for her. By God. Upon being threatened and attacked by Satan the woman (Mary) who gave birth to Jesus fled to the desert to a safe place. It’s almost as if Jesus Christ knew that he must protect His vessel, the New Ark.

The passage continues for a bit, mentioning the Great Spiritual War. We see Saint Michael leading God’s Army. On a totally unrelated note, this is the third time now in the Bible we see Michael take on this role. We know that God can take care of things Himself. But He still empowered Michael to be the leader of His Army, the Field Commander as it were. Crazy stuff. Anyway, the next part of the passage shows us the following;

*When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.
*
And here it is. The Devil continued to chase down Mary, but he couldn’t touch her. He could. NOT. TOUCH HER. God took her and protected her. She was never touched by the Devil. She wasn’t just taken to a safer place, but she was given “wings of the eagle so she might fly to the place”. She was given special privilege, special means to transport herself to the safe place. They very notion that she has a refuge from the Devil where she cannot be touched is astounding. She couldn’t be touched by the Devil. Which means…she was never touched by sin. And the only way you can not be touched at all by sin is to not be born into original sin. This “safe place” and “given the wings of a great eagle” is something we Catholics now have a term for;

the Immaculate Conception.

Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

“The rest of her offspring”. Who are her offspring? Why the Christian Church. Mary, as the Mother of God, is also all of our Mother as well. This passage is an extension of when Christ said to John “this is your mother”. The John who heard that at the Cross is the same John who wrote Revelation. Some say that when Christ said that to John he wanted him to look after his Mother. But Jesus knows his Mother, and knows there’s

So now we have determined through Biblical reasons (and the use of Time Travel Theorems) that Mary was conceived without original sin, as she was taken to the safe place. After establishing that, everything else about Mary makes perfect sense. Without original sin, she is capable of no actual sin. Without actual sin she is no longer bound by mortal death as we are, thus she logically is assumed into heaven. While in Heaven she can intercede on our behalf, as you do not cease to be a Christian upon entering Heaven.

Jesus is King. And all Kings need a queen. Yet who could be the equal of the Son of Man? No one. But what gets lost with this is Jesus comes from the Davidic line, and a precedent was set already by Solomon. Solomon has several wives, and none were his equal. And he certainly could not choose one out of many. So when it came time for Solomon to have a queen, who did he choose? The woman most worthy of the title…his own mother. She became the Queen Mother, which is a title still in used in some monarchies in the world today. A wise move, all things considered. But where did Solomon get his gift of wisdom? God. And who is God? Jesus. So it makes sense then that Jesus Christ would crown His mother as Queen, considering that she was conceived without original sin and all of that. No other woman could qualify. And it brings us back to the first portion of the passage; a great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

Mary is like the moon. She shines brightly, a beacon in the darkest night. But her light only shines if the Son shines on her. And the Son crowns her with the crown of twelve stars. Twelve of course, is symbolic throughout the Bible. The Twelve Tribes, Twelve Apostles. It denotes the whole of the Church. In this case, Mary is crowned with the whole Church. Crowned as the Queen Mother of Heaven and the Church.

Mary, Queen of Heaven. The Mother of God. The Mother of us all. The new Eve. The new Ark of the Covenant.

With or without Time Travel Theorems it all makes sense.

But you gotta admit…the Time Travel thing helps a bit, eh?

Mary our Mother, PRAY FOR US.

That’s wonderful!

The time travel thing definitely helped. :thumbsup::wink:

I did enjoy the arguments used sans the time travel theorim (sorry!)

Also, is the how the Magesterium interprets all these things or were they deduced by yourself or of others?

I agree with all the ends, just curious to the complete validity of the argument used. God bless!

As Catholics we hold a special place of honour for our Mother, Mary. This can be somewhat confusing to non-Catholics, who have several misconceptions and questions regarding Marian devotions. They question as to why Mary is held in such high regard. They ask why we ask her for prayers. In some cases they even say “you pray to Mary and worship her”. And that the Catholic position on Mary is squarely Biblical. Oddly enough, the Biblical passage in question is not within the Gospel of Luke.

While in agreement with the OP, I wonder if there in not a briefer understanding of why the CC holds Mary is such high esteem?

It begins from understanding that the Teaching of the CC reflects God’s own relationship with Mary as being unique and special.

Mary is the Daughter of God the Father, chosen from the beginning of time.

Mary is the “bride” of the Holy Spirit: Luke 1: 34-36 And Mary said to the angel, “How shall this be, since I have no husband?” And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.

Mary is the Mother of Jesus; the “Mother of God.”

From this understanding, how can the CC NOT hold Mary in a prominent position? Are we to think less of her than God does?

Why do Catholic hold the Immaculate Conception, perpetual virginity, and sinlessness of Mary?

**Matt. 5:48 **“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

1 St. Peter 1: 16 “since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

Yahweh when giving very precise and specific directions on how he Moses, is to build the Ark of the Covenant, uses the term “pure gold” twenty-five times. [Exo. Chapters 25-39]. If God is this particular about the Ark, how much more particular will He be about the Living Tabernacle of His Son Jesus?

***Because God is and has to be perfect; Mary too had to be [in an absolute sense] perfected; that is “made perfect” in order that Christ in the nature of man had to be “perfect,” just as Christ, the Son of God‘s, Divine Nature is perfect. Nothing less would be acceptable to God; for God and by God. It is trough the [future… time does not exist for God] merits of Her Son Jesus that this was both necessary and accomplished in Mary.

It is from this same understanding that we can understand through the eye of Faith; that Mary not only HAD TO BE PERFECTED; but also to remain sinless and perfect as is fitting for “the Mother of God.”******These singular graces were merited though Mary’s personal relationship with each Person of the Blessed Trinity. But they were in a sense also merited [justified] by Mary’s personal freewill lives choices.

Mary said yes to God each and every time God asked something of her.***

Be the Mother of God? YES
Give birth in a cave? YES
Move to a pagan country? Yes
Move to Nazareth ? Yes
Lose Jesus for three day’s without complaint? Yes
Willingly let Jesus go for His Mission, knowing she would lose her son? Yes
Endure Christ passion and death willingly without complaint? Yes
Accept us as her Children by adoption? Yes

Mary is the most perfect of all human beings. She is the model that we all ought to strive to emulate. She sits next to Jesus in heaven, and is the most perfect, and most effective intercessor to her son Jesus.

Catholics do NOT “***Worship” ***[which is reserved for God alone], Mary or Saints. Indeed it is more articulate to say that “we pray through them,” than just “too them.” The end goal of our prayers is to reach Jesus.

Mary and the Saints, add there own petitions to ours, and then present in person; the combined petitions to God on our behalf. It is termed “Intercessory Prayer” and has a biblical foundation in Heb. 13:7.

That’s fine you didn’t like the Time Travel thing, it’s not for everyone :slight_smile:

This specific interpretation of Revelations 12 is my own that I’ve prayed/thought about over a long while. Thus far I haven’t had any objections from either clergy, seminarians, or laymen regarding validity.

Of course, I’ve received some objections from fundamentalist Christians, but that’s to be expected :slight_smile:

The reason why it’s 2000+ words is because it’s a talk I wrote. It’s essentially designed for someone to stand up in front of a group of people and talk for 5 - 10 minutes. Is there a briefer way? yeah. But there are times you need to go into a bit more detail :slight_smile:

I appreciate the comments and feedback everyone!

Algo, I want to pick your brain about something. Could you head over to forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=463745 and give it a read and post your thoughts? I’m interested to know what you think of my commentary on Revelations 12.

Thanks for the invite. I’ll look this over and let you know what I think.

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.