The Latin Mass - Should It Be the Universal Catholic Mass Again?


#1

Should the Latin Mass be the universal Catholic mass again?

I am interested in polling how many people think we should return to just the Latin Mass within the church and phase out the Ordinary Format (the mass since Vatican II)…

Bruce


#2

:popcorn:


#3

[quote="trickster, post:1, topic:285445"]
Should the Latin Mass be the universal Catholic mass again?

I am interested in polling how many people think we should return to just the Latin Mass within the church and phase out the Ordinary Format (the mass since Vatican II)...

Bruce

[/quote]

It was beautiful while it lasted.
We should move forwards not backwards.


#4

[quote="trickster, post:1, topic:285445"]
Should the Latin Mass be the universal Catholic mass again?

[/quote]

Let's see...ask the Traditional Forum if the EF should be the OF and the OF should be stopped. Hey - do you also conduct polls for the Obama administration? :D


#5

I for one would love it.... But some seems to be against it.... :)


#6

[quote="Pfaffenhoffen, post:3, topic:285445"]
It was beautiful while it lasted.
We should move forwards not backwards.

[/quote]

I agree. I was talking to a Benedictine monk last week. He thinks the OF, properly celebrated, can be every bit as beautiful as the EF. Our abbot also feels the same way.

There are issues of abuse in the OF. Those should be addressed. But there's much to like about it too, not the least of which is the expanded lectionary, the simplified liturgical year, etc.

I vote that we continue to improve the OF, and fight against abuses instead.


#7

[quote="OraLabora, post:6, topic:285445"]
I agree. I was talking to a Benedictine monk last week. He thinks the OF, properly celebrated, can be every bit as beautiful as the EF. Our abbot also feels the same way.

There are issues of abuse in the OF. Those should be addressed. But there's much to like about it too, not the least of which is the expanded lectionary, the simplified liturgical year, etc.

I vote that we continue to improve the OF, and fight against abuses instead.

[/quote]

Improve how? Much of what has become the norm in the OF is what Traditionalists don't care for and can avoid by going to the TLM.


#8

[quote="OraLabora, post:6, topic:285445"]
I agree. I was talking to a Benedictine monk last week. He thinks the OF, properly celebrated, can be every bit as beautiful as the EF. Our abbot also feels the same way.

There are issues of abuse in the OF. Those should be addressed. But there's much to like about it too, not the least of which is the expanded lectionary, the simplified liturgical year, etc.

I vote that we continue to improve the OF, and fight against abuses instead.

[/quote]

Well.... even if properly celebrated there is less genuflecting, less inessence, facing the people...... hmmmm ya :)


#9

[quote="jam070406, post:7, topic:285445"]
Improve how? Much of what has become the norm in the OF is what Traditionalists don't care for and can avoid by going to the TLM.

[/quote]

Well, I guess one could try the old fashioned method of giving bishops the ability to make small changes to the liturgy, which would accrue over time and form an organic liturgical tradition. That, of course, comes with the major downside that liturgical abuse would be easier to commit.


#10

[quote="trickster, post:1, topic:285445"]
Should the Latin Mass be the universal Catholic mass again?

I am interested in polling how many people think we should return to just the Latin Mass within the church and phase out the Ordinary Format (the mass since Vatican II)...

Bruce

[/quote]

Sorry, I seemed to have stumbled into a conclave of cardinals here with lots of responsibilities, and will quickly return to my world where opinions about the weather are more suited to my lowly station in life. ;)


#11

[quote="Cavaradossi, post:9, topic:285445"]
Well, I guess one could try the old fashioned method of giving bishops the ability to make small changes to the liturgy, which would accrue over time and form an organic liturgical tradition. That, of course, comes with the major downside that liturgical abuse would be easier to commit.

[/quote]

I guess it depends on what an abuse is. Things that were once considered an abuse are now approved by Rome. I don't want to get flamed on so I'll just leave it at that. :)


#12

Personally, I would prefer to see the return to the Traditional Latin Mass and the eventual phasing out of the Novus Ordo. However, I do NOT think that would ever happen.

At least, I think there should be a Traditional Latin Mass offered at EVERY Parish. I don't think that will ever happen either. There are too many that would be against that. Why, I'm not sure exactly.

Those that I've spoken to about that idea are adamently against it. I'm not sure why that is. It's not like the Novus Ordo would be abandoned. It almost seems as if they're afraid of it.


#13

[quote="trickster, post:1, topic:285445"]
Should the Latin Mass be the universal Catholic mass again?

I am interested in polling how many people think we should return to just the Latin Mass within the church and phase out the Ordinary Format (the mass since Vatican II)...

Bruce

[/quote]

lt never was.

Mozarabic rite in use since 6th century
Ambrosian rite in use since days of St. Ambrose
Bragan rite in use since 12th century
Dominican rite in use since 1215
Carthusian rite in use since 1084

And those are only the rites in the Latin Church. These do not even take into account the 22 seperate rites that are celebrated in the Eastern Catholic traditions.

Moreover, since the 1980's, the Anglican use rite has also been approved in certain churches.

It is simply untrue that the EF was EVER the "universal Catholic Mass".

In charity, I think you might more properly ask if the present EF in the Latin rite should again be considered the OF for the Latin rite.

. . . and if so, I would then ask, should the present OF be abrogated, supressed, or continue to be allowed as an EF?


#14

[quote="AdDeum, post:12, topic:285445"]
Personally, I would prefer to see the return to the Traditional Latin Mass and the eventual phasing out of the Novus Ordo. However, I do NOT think that would ever happen.

At least, I think there should be a Traditional Latin Mass offered at EVERY Parish. I don't think that will ever happen either. There are too many that would be against that. Why, I'm not sure exactly.

Those that I've spoken to about that idea are adamently against it. I'm not sure why that is. It's not like the Novus Ordo would be abandoned. It almost seems as if they're afraid of it.

[/quote]

I agree with this.
I remember a discussion of the missal changes at the local parish, where one lady said "as long as we never use LAAAAATIN....BLEEEEEEEEEEEEECH"


#15

[quote="trickster, post:1, topic:285445"]
Should the Latin Mass be the universal Catholic mass again?

I am interested in polling how many people think we should return to just the Latin Mass within the church and phase out the Ordinary Format (the mass since Vatican II)...

Bruce

[/quote]

In a word - No. I would strongly object to that and it is one of my greatest fears at the moment.

On the other hand, I see a great many here really like the Latin EF or Tridentine (not sure those are synonymous) so would like to see them accessible to everyone who wants to attend. I am not sure that means in every parish, but certainly several in each diocese where people are not burdened with too long a trip.

As I have said before, I really do not understand the attraction, but I also believe that our church is big enough to tolerate some diversity. I do have difficulty with the brick bats that keep getting thrown over walls of opinion rather than smiles across a bridge!


#16

A good beginning would be to ensure that it's more readily available for everyone. At this time I don't see any reason why 10 pct of all parishes couldn't be offering a TLM.


#17

No.

We need to do everything possible to promote better understanding of our Catholic faith, and IMO, conducting the Main Event of the Church in a foreign language is not conducive to better understanding.

Even with a translation guide.

In the past,perhaps Catholics were willing to spend more time studying on their own, and children and teenagers truly paid attention and studied hard in their parish religious education classes.

Those days are gone, and I don't think they'll ever return. We are a Sesame Street people now. Some of you aren't, and you love spending long hours in prayer, contemplation, and study. But that's not the norm, and isn't likely to become the norm.

Too bad we can't catechize using video games. We would have the most educated children and teenagers in history. :(


#18

I would prefer having the direction translation of Latin to English for the mass. WE are currently working towards that with the latest changes.

What I would like to see is a return to the traditions of PiusV mass. Final Gospel, the vestments, the incensing of the alter at ALL high massess, turning the alter around to the original postion, etc.

The vestments that priests wear today are a joke. They look like sheets with a hole cut in the middle for your head. The meaning of each vestment is lost on the congregation. The beauty of the traditional mass needs to return.


#19

I don't see any reason to phase out either onw. Both should be available.


#20

[quote="TradionalWay, post:8, topic:285445"]
Well.... even if properly celebrated there is less genuflecting, less inessence, facing the people...... hmmmm ya :)

[/quote]

Well, at the OF I attend:

-Propers and ordinary are in Gregorian chant
-All of the rest is in French plainchant; even the readings and Gospel are chanted
-On all Sundays, Solemnities and feasts incense is used at the entrance procession; the altar is incensed before Mass begins; the Gospel book is incensed before the Gospel is proclaimed, and the ambo is incensed by the acolyte as the deacon chants the Gospel; the altar and gifts are incensed at the offertory; the community and the faithful are incensed after that.
-The bells are rung at the consecration
-Mass is facing the people... but that's actually an ancient Benedictine tradition, and it IS a Benedictine monastery after all;
-People kneel when they are supposed to kneel and genuflect whenever the Blessed Sacrament is on the altar (the tabernacle is in a side chapel, also an ancient Benedictine tradition)
-The pipe organ is the only instrument used, but the chant is a cappella as it is supposed to be (the organ is used to play a prelude, at the offertory, and a postlude after the Mass)

I have also been to an OF Benedictine Mass facing the altar (at Monte Cassino in Italy), but the choir is behind the altar so the celebrant is actually facing his community in keeping with the Benedictine tradition.

Honestly, what more do you want???

This is what the OF can be. Are you telling me that ALL EF Masses beat this, that there are no 20-minute low EF Masses? Some of my friends served Mass prior to Vatican II, and they had their favourite priests who would expedite the Mass in 20 minutes flat...

[quote="michaelmas, post:18, topic:285445"]
The vestments that priests wear today are a joke. They look like sheets with a hole cut in the middle for your head. The meaning of each vestment is lost on the congregation. The beauty of the traditional mass needs to return.

[/quote]

On the other hand there's a lot to be said for a spirit of humility, simplicity and poverty. At the abbey above, normal vestments are quite plain. They do have very ornate vestments though for solemnities. They maintain them very carefully as they are over 50 years old.

And of course you realize that the vestments have nothing to do with the form of the Mass...


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