Many non catholics believe that Mary and Joseph had a normal marriage - but my question is simple - I understand that Mary was betrothed to Joseph at some point - but did they actually have a wedding?
In my opinion I do not believe they actually did - I understand betrothed to be understood as being engaged - thus there is no mention of their wedding day within scripture.
I also understand that in those times even those girls who have taken a vow of celibacy as we know young Mary did would have had a man to take care of her - in this case it was Joseph and Jesus Christ continued to take care of his mother until the moment before his death on the cross in which he gave this responsibility to his beloved disciple (apostle) John.
There are also a lot of gaps in Scripture too. In those days, yes, you had a wedding feast. According to Ancient Jewish customs, when a man took his betrothed into his house they were actually considered married. And the custom was after a man took his betrothed into his house to become his wife, it was after that you had the wedding feast.
For today, it is the opposite. So yes, Mary and Joseph did have a real marriage, but a special one, since Mary vowed her virginity to God at a young age.
Marriage was in two parts. The couple was married but did not live together for a period of a year or two. The bride lived with her parents preparing to take over the houshold of her husband. This period was called the betrothal. It was not an engagement as we understand that term today. They were married but not yet living together. The second part of the marriage was when they began living together. That is why Joseph was seeking a divorce privetly and why the angel tells him not to fear to take his “wife” into his home.
Do you think Mary took an oath to God to be a virgin because of THE GOSPEL OF THE BIRTH OF MARY and THE PROTOEVANGELION OF JAMES?
I have read through and extensively studied THE GOSPEL OF THE BIRTH OF MARY, THE PROTOEVANGELION OF JAMES, THE FIRST GOSPEL OF THE INFANCY OF CHRIST, THE SECOND GOSPEL OF THE INFANCY OF CHRIST, THE GOSPEL OF PSEUDO-MATTHEW and THE HISTORY OF JOSEPH THE CARPENTER and do not really see these documents as strong proofs of traditions that are real, more like Christian legends told at a later time to fill in gaps where people gossip about what coulda woulda shoulda happened.
What if Mary was a virgin and young when God told her she will become pregnant without laying with a man?
Many Orthodox don’t actually consider that they went on to the second part of the marriage - they they weren’t married. It’s a bit tricky, because she did go to live with Joseph, however, they didn’t consummate the marriage, which is implied in the living together phase of the arrangement - it’s that as much as the living together that makes the marriage. I believe they even have a special title for Joseph which reflects this understanding, something like “ever-betrothed”? (That sounds awful, I’m sure it is actually a nicer title than that.)
In any case, it may be, given Mary’'s “interesting condition” that they didn’t have a feast, and just did things quietly. I suspect most people believed that the baby was Joseph’s, so it would have been a bit of a scandal.
From what I understand, the Catholic tradition has been to assert that Joseph was more of a caretaker for Christ than a husband to Mary. But, we must remember that before Christ was crucified and ascended that He often spoke of the problems with traditions. Also, when speaking about celibacy to His apostles He declared that not everyone can accept it. Notwithstanding, Catholic tradition contains many errancies or rebellions against Christ’s initial orders for the apostles. For instance, Christ asked that the apostles be not called “father”, as God is our only Father in Heaven. Yet, many today will address the Pope as “Holy Father.” So, Catholic tradition is not necessarily Christian or in compliance with Christ’s orders. Moreover, one must consider that Peter is essentially fulfilling the role of David, which is to feed the people. This role was initially covenanted to David, the ancestor of Joseph. Also, Peter became intimately involved with a murderer named Paul. Peter also committed the trespass of persecuting and justifying the murder of someone for lying, (even though he himself was given to the fault as well, and these acts of not forgiving also go against Christ’s warnings). Catholic tradition might have irrefutable merit if it weren’t for the perpetual trespasses committed by the Church. In light of this, tradition must be analyzed for motive. There are essentially two – (perhaps there are [many] more) – motives that may be implicated in declaring the perpetual virginity of Mary, and/or indicating a non-existent or celibate marriage between her and Joseph. One such motive may have been to, “eliminate the competition,” of Joseph’s children from any right to authority in the church, and/or covering over their murders. Consider that if, out of hurt for witnessing the apostles trespass their brother’s commandments, one of the sons of Joseph tried to reprove them. What do you suppose would have happened to that person if the tradition still is not to follow the ordinances of Christ? Another motive may have been to justify, or vitiate, the iniquity of assuming the title of “Holy Father”. If the Church were ever to rid itself of this error and no longer, like a Nazi, wear its anti-semitic and anti-Christ nature “on it’s sleeve” to discourage the faithful who might otherwise embrace Christianity; and when the Church can come to terms with the fact that murder, in all instances, is the work of the devil, (whom Christ implicated in Peter), then maybe the word of the Church would mean something in regard to Mary and/or Joseph. But, with murder being justified and trespass being committed there is no other reality but to investigate the motivation and system of justification that allows for the shunning of repentance and despising of obedience that is inherent in both the early and modern Church. Also consider the similarities between the words, “I never knew Him,” spoken by Peter and the teaching of the Church, “She never knew him.” The title of the Pope not only disrespects Christ but it leads to an inherent questioning of the accuracy of any statement issued form the Church, which, in turn, ultimately leads to, what may be considered, disrespect toward Mary.
I am honest. Just because some people like to lie and rebel doesn’t make them representative of Christianity or Catholicism. Is it so hard to follow the laws of Christ? Is it so hard to be honest? I have done so many things, prophesied so many times, and watched so many people die while the Church just looks on. Would I have a cause against it if I were not working while it was rebelling? Would my speculations have merit if all the people I had tried to save were alive, or even if the Church acknowledged what was going on? It’s too bad Peter met with Paul and that Paul convinced him to continue in his rebellion. For example, an alcoholic needs treatment, not someone chanting, “Chug it! Chug it!” But I am not to blame because I am honest. It is more intimidating for me than for them and they all had each other. I only have the truth, God, and Christ. Why you are not ashamed to address me like this, and to pardon the errors of the Church is unknown to me. How long could I possibly live with the Church (and America) wanting to keep everything I’ve said and done a secret? Justifying murder doesn’t make you better than me. You obviously don’t respect Christ or His teachings or you would have understood I am only advocating the following of His orders. Instead you look for fault in me, and where do you think it’s going to get you?
The current Pope ascended to power amid the unraveling of works wrought by God thru me. The curruption inherent in the covering up of those works, as well as the threats that are inherent in the murders of the subjects of my prophecies, has led me to be very concerned for Joseph Ratzinger. My initial assumption in a prophecy that occurred before he was instated was that he would go to Hell whereas his predecessor would enter into Paradise. Unfortunately, for the integrity of the Catholic Church, it has not headed my advice in ceasing it’s application of the title, “Father,” upon men. I have tried many times to reconcile the Church with God but, just like I can hope and pray that someone I have provided enough information to save actually will be, yet the eventuality is that they die; so likewise it is with the Pope, (and/or the “Catholic Church”), that my hopes [for them] may be/go unfulfilled as well. I am beholden unto Christ who gives me knowledge of the future and commandments to follow. And I am first sent unto Catholics even as Christ was first sent unto Jews. But, like for so many prophets before me and Christ Himself, the Word is truly sent for those who will listen. I am and will be in union with God and Christ, yet the Law testifies of the errors of the Cathollc Church. In rejecting me the Church has not become more of a Catholic and me less, but rather it has become like everyone else and me more like Christ. Praise God who will restore to life those souls once entrusted to me and slain by the world.
1: If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2: And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3: Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4: Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5: And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
6: If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7: Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8: Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10: And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
11: And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
12: If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
13: Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
14: Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
15: Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
16: And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
17: And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;
18: When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.
God is my Father, not the Pope. Sorry for any misunderstanding.
Angelo Michael, I I will not waste my time and derail this thread as you want to do. Everything you said is in error. Here are just two of them. You object to “Holy Father”. Holy does not mean sinless. It means “set apart”. Like “Holy ground” does not mean the ground is sinless, just set apart. Thus the Pope, the Holy Father is set apart.
If Christ did not want the apostles to call themselves “father” then why did they?
Sts. Stephen and Paul did:
Acts Of Apostles 7
2 Who said: Ye men, brethren, and fathers, hear. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charan
Romans 9:10 “ And not only she. But when Rebecca also had conceived at once, of Isaac our father.
Luke 16:24 “ And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.
John also addresses men in his congregations as “fathers” (1 John 2:13–14).
For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die.’
But you say, ‘If any one tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father.’
and do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father’; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham.
Bear fruits that befit repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father’; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham.
And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz’arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’
And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent
Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?
1 Corianthians 4:15
For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became **your father **in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
Jesus criticized Jewish leaders who love “the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, and salutations in the market places, and being called ‘rabbi’ by men” (Matt. 23:6–7). His admonition here is a response to the Pharisees’ proud hearts and their g.asping after marks of status and prestige.
He was using hyperbole (exaggeration to make a point) to show the scribes and Pharisees how sinful and proud they were for not looking humbly to God as the source of all authority and fatherhood and teaching, and instead setting themselves up as the ultimate authorities, father figures, and teachers.
Christ used hyperbole often, for example when he declared, “If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell” (Matt. 5:29, cf. 18:9; Mark 9:47). Christ certainly did not intend this to be applied literally, for otherwise all Christians would be blind amputees! (cf. 1 John 1:8; 1 Tim. 1:15). We are all subject to “the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life” (1 John 2:16).
Since Jesus is demonstrably using hyperbole when he says not to call anyone our father—else we would not be able to refer to our earthly fathers as such—we must read his words carefully and with sensitivity to the presence of hyperbole if we wish to understand what he is saying.
Jesus is not forbidding us to call men “fathers” who actually are such—either literally or spiritually. (See below on the apostolic example of spiritual fatherhood.) To refer to such people as fathers is only to acknowledge the truth, and Jesus is not against that. He is warning people against inaccurately attributing fatherhood—or a particular kind or degree of fatherhood—to those who do not have it.
As the apostolic example shows, some individuals genuinely do have a spiritual fatherhood, meaning that they can be referred to as spiritual fathers. What must not be done is to confuse their form of spiritual paternity with that of God. Ultimately, God is our supreme protector, provider, and instructor. Correspondingly, it is wrong to view any individual other than God as having these roles.
Throughout the world, some people have been tempted to look upon religious leaders who are mere mortals as if they were an individual’s supreme source of spiritual instruction, nourishment, and protection. The tendency to turn mere men into “gurus” is worldwide.
This was also a temptation in the Jewish world of Jesus’ day, when famous rabbinical leaders, especially those who founded important schools, such as Hillel and Shammai, were highly exalted by their disciples. It is this elevation of an individual man—the formation of a “cult of personality” around him—of which Jesus is speaking when he warns against attributing to someone an undue role as master, father, or teacher.
He is not forbidding the perfunctory use of honorifics nor forbidding us to recognize that the person does have a role as a spiritual father and teacher. The example of his own apostles shows us that.
Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the **gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.**
** I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."**
Then he strictly ordered his disciples to tell no one that he was the Messiah.
You can only take what is not yours until God gives it back to it’s rightful owner. My point here has been that the Catholic Church, not only commits the ungodly sin of calling men “Father”, but also when Peter and Paul corroborated to re-subject women (both being murderers) they commit additional trespass; and so today, when all the people I have sent to the Church are killed, it is the end of the allowance of sin. Furthermore, the state of sin that the Church exists in does not allow me to take any doctrine from it even if it were true just as one can not listen to a false prophet who speaks of revolt toward God. You people are free to be misled and happy to be so – I guess – because you want me dead out of envy. Search the Scriptures and see if God did not send prophets to religious organizations that were out of line and not the other way around.
Christ, like God, has told us how we should be addressed and what we should not be called.
In Jeremiah 23 God is setting forth appropriate and inappropriate phrases to be used when inquiring of prophets:
29: Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
30: Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
31: Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
32: Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.
33: And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying, What is the burden of the LORD? thou shalt then say unto them, What burden? I will even forsake you, saith the LORD.
34: And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the LORD, I will even punish that man and his house.
35: Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother, What hath the LORD answered? and, What hath the LORD spoken?
36: And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man’s word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God.
37: Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the LORD answered thee? and, What hath the LORD spoken?
38: But since ye say, The burden of the LORD; therefore thus saith the LORD; Because ye say this word, The burden of the LORD, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the LORD;
39: Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:
40: And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.
Notice how the Lord becomes angry because of the trespass? How God was explicit and clear and the people chose not to listen?
Christ has been the same way with us:
8: But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9: And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10: Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
10: So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
And, like for so many other things, the apostles, and/or the Church, have chosen not to listen – to provoke God unnecessarily.
It may seem off topic, but this thread is an inquiry; and when God, (whom Christ learns from), was making His rules of conduct known, they were about inquiries and it can be inferred that Christ’s are as well. Therefore, since this thread/inquiry is made toward a Catholic Church that will not follow the rules, it must be considered that the inquirer also may suffer condemnation.
Or I am the Prophet Christ promised and the works (and truth) are being covered up and hearts are being hardened and evil is being plotted – as is usual in these circumstances. Maybe you should listen to and try to understand my arguments though. And also try to make a relevant counter argument instead of accusing me in – what I hope is – your ignorance of the reality of the situation… So it’s better to label and slander someone than to communicate with them? Last time I checked that’s what’s called being a “sore loser.”
Think about it…
Muslims can’t want me… Mormons can’t want me… Catholics… Witnesses… Protestants… Not any of them… Why???
Because they already have a “me” that suits their needs.
Also, consider that even the most bitter of enemies will agree to get along to achieve a common goal.
Do you suppose what you are doing/saying is unique? Relevant?
1: And it came to pass in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that this word came unto Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2: Take thee a roll of a book, and write therein all the words that I have spoken unto thee against Israel, and against Judah, and against all the nations, from the day I spake unto thee, from the days of Josiah, even unto this day.
3: It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.
4: Then Jeremiah called Baruch the son of Neriah: and Baruch wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the LORD, which he had spoken unto him, upon a roll of a book.
5: And Jeremiah commanded Baruch, saying, I am shut up; I cannot go into the house of the LORD:
6: Therefore go thou, and read in the roll, which thou hast written from my mouth, the words of the LORD in the ears of the people in the LORD’s house upon the fasting day: and also thou shalt read them in the ears of all Judah that come out of their cities.
7: It may be they will present their supplication before the LORD, and will return every one from his evil way: for great is the anger and the fury that the LORD hath pronounced against this people.
8: And Baruch the son of Neriah did according to all that Jeremiah the prophet commanded him, reading in the book the words of the LORD in the LORD’s house.
9: And it came to pass in the fifth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, in the ninth month, that they proclaimed a fast before the LORD to all the people in Jerusalem, and to all the people that came from the cities of Judah unto Jerusalem.
10: Then read Baruch in the book the words of Jeremiah in the house of the LORD, in the chamber of Gemariah the son of Shaphan the scribe, in the higher court, at the entry of the new gate of the LORD’s house, in the ears of all the people.
11: When Michaiah the son of Gemariah, the son of Shaphan, had heard out of the book all the words of the LORD,
12: Then he went down into the king’s house, into the scribe’s chamber: and, lo, all the princes sat there, even Elishama the scribe, and Delaiah the son of Shemaiah, and Elnathan the son of Achbor, and Gemariah the son of Shaphan, and Zedekiah the son of Hananiah, and all the princes.
13: Then Michaiah declared unto them all the words that he had heard, when Baruch read the book in the ears of the people.
14: Therefore all the princes sent Jehudi the son of Nethaniah, the son of Shelemiah, the son of Cushi, unto Baruch, saying, Take in thine hand the roll wherein thou hast read in the ears of the people, and come. So Baruch the son of Neriah took the roll in his hand, and came unto them.
15: And they said unto him, Sit down now, and read it in our ears. So Baruch read it in their ears.
16: Now it came to pass, when they had heard all the words, they were afraid both one and other, and said unto Baruch, We will surely tell the king of all these words.
17: And they asked Baruch, saying, Tell us now, How didst thou write all these words at his mouth?
18: Then Baruch answered them, He pronounced all these words unto me with his mouth, and I wrote them with ink in the book.
19: Then said the princes unto Baruch, Go, hide thee, thou and Jeremiah; and let no man know where ye be.
20: And they went in to the king into the court, but they laid up the roll in the chamber of Elishama the scribe, and told all the words in the ears of the king.
21: So the king sent Jehudi to fetch the roll: and he took it out of Elishama the scribe’s chamber. And Jehudi read it in the ears of the king, and in the ears of all the princes which stood beside the king.
*22: Now the king sat in the winterhouse in the ninth month: and there was a fire on the hearth burning before him.
23: And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.
24: Yet they were not afraid, nor rent their garments, neither the king, nor any of his servants that heard all these words. *
25: Nevertheless Elnathan and Delaiah and Gemariah had made intercession to the king that he would not burn the roll: but he would not hear them.
26: But the king commanded Jerahmeel the son of Hammelech, and Seraiah the son of Azriel, and Shelemiah the son of Abdeel, to take Baruch the scribe and Jeremiah the prophet: but the LORD hid them.
27: Then the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, after that the king had burned the roll, and the words which Baruch wrote at the mouth of Jeremiah, saying,
28: Take thee again another roll, and write in it all the former words that were in the first roll, which Jehoiakim the king of Judah hath burned.
29: And thou shalt say to Jehoiakim the king of Judah, Thus saith the LORD; Thou hast burned this roll, saying, Why hast thou written therein, saying, The king of Babylon shall certainly come and destroy this land, and shall cause to cease from thence man and beast?
30: Therefore thus saith the LORD of Jehoiakim king of Judah; He shall have none to sit upon the throne of David: and his dead body shall be cast out in the day to the heat, and in the night to the frost.
31: And I will punish him and his seed and his servants for their iniquity; and I will bring upon them, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and upon the men of Judah, all the evil that I have pronounced against them; but they hearkened not.
32: Then took Jeremiah another roll, and gave it to Baruch the scribe, the son of Neriah; who wrote therein from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the book which Jehoiakim king of Judah had burned in the fire: and there were added besides unto them many like words.