The line of the antichrist the pope the Curia, imperial cult, and Pontificus Maximus

This I think is an interesting by our anti-catholic Protestant especially dispensationalist friends. Basically the pope is the antichrist only history is put forward. Essentially the pope is a continuation of the pagan emperors hence the title Pontificus Maximus? Also the roman Curia is the imperial cult. The Holy Roman Empire is essentially the Beast’s kingdom.

I have heard charges along these lines for some time. I am interested in hearing y’all’s refutations. First Pontificus Maximus-this a title for the emperors that had a pagan meaning no? How did the pope get the title and hence Pontiff? Basically how was the title transferred? The college of cardinals and roman Curia or ecclesiastical authority is the imperial cult devoted to him. I am interested in this. Also the Holy Roman Empire and catholic history. The dispensationalists charge is the Pope’s kingdom essentially the Emperor is the beast and Pope sort of false prophet sort of charge. Yes the Holy Roman Empire is gone but a lot Protestants speculate about a European federation that would replace it and be the fourth kingdom Daniel 7 that the antichrist would emerge from. Basically I am looking for refutations to Pontificus Maximus, Curia=imperial cult! and the reich is basically and a satanic empire that the pope is a spokesman or emperor depending on the writer?

The futile assumptions here deny that Jesus knew what He was doing when He specifically established His Church on St Peter, and the unstated error is that therefore He could not be God.
This is a total disregard of the Son of God.

The first error is in disregarding the mandate of Jesus, the Son of God, in installing Peter as His Supreme Vicar:
All four promises to Peter alone:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later also to theTwelve]

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

The second error is in disregarding history.
Already, Peter had exercised his supreme authority in the upper room before Pentecost to have Judas’ place filled. At the first Apostolic Council of Jerusalem Peter settled the heated discussion over circumcising the gentiles and “the whole assembly fell silent” (Acts 15:7-12). Paul made sure that his ministry to the gentiles was recognised by, Peter (Gal 1:I8).

The apostles were a collegial community, under Peter. “By the end of the apostolic age, the bishops of the Catholic Church began meeting together on a regional basis, and with the first ecumenical council at Nicaea in 325, this co-operative activity reached worldwide proportions.” (Fr John A Hardon, S.J., The Catholic Catechism, Doubleday, 1975, p 320-321). The teaching of Ecumenical Councils has to be approved by Christ’s Supreme Vicar.

The Pope only became known as the “Pontifex Maximus” when a bunch of Nestorians called him that derogatorily. The title stuck with the public.

I would avoid any and all people who blather the nonsense you write about. There is nothing you can say that can or will say that would convince them otherwise. They are immune to history or logic, and any biblical quotations you give them they will consider misquotes…especially if from a Catholic Bible, Even if you quote a King James Version, they will not believe you.
Never forget that the bigger the lie, the more some people will believe in it. These people will never believe the truth no matter what.
So, the only thing you can do is avoid such people like the plague. All they will do for you is to lead you into uncharitable thoughts.

Hi Rock,
I have read many of your posts with great curiosity. You seem to converse with a great deal of anti-Catholic types. No crime in that. But as of this latest post, curiosity has gotten the better of me.

If you don’t mind, I would like to ask you what YOUR thoughts are on Catholicism, the Pope, and many of the other Catholic related topics you have brought out for discussion.

Thanks,
esieffe:knight1:

Rock 7, I have read several of your posts and I am wondering the same as esieffe.

You certainly know which communion NOT to join. But, how to find the one true Church?

“If I were not a Catholic, and were looking for the true Church in the world today, I would look for the one Church which did not get along well with the world; in other words, I would look for the Church which the world hated. My reason for doing this would be, that if Christ is in any one of the churches of the world today, He must still be hated as He was when He was on earth in the flesh. If you would find Christ today, then find the Church that does not get along with the world. Look for the Church that is hated by the world as Christ was hated by the world. Look for the Church that is accused of being behind the times, as our Lord was accused of being ignorant and never having learned. Look for the Church which men sneer at as socially inferior, as they sneered at Our Lord because He came from Nazareth. Look for the Church which is accused of having a devil, as Our Lord was accused of being possessed by Beelzebub, the Prince of Devils. Look for the Church which, in seasons of bigotry, men say must be destroyed in the name of God as men crucified Christ and thought they had done a service to God. Look for the Church which the world rejects because it claims it is infallible, as Pilate rejected Christ because He called Himself the Truth. Look for the Church which is rejected by the world as Our Lord was rejected by men. Look for the Church which amid the confusions of conflicting opinions, its members love as they love Christ, and respect its Voice as the very voice of its Founder, and the suspicion will grow, that if the Church is unpopular with the spirit of the world, then it is unworldly, and if it is unworldly it is other worldly. Since it is other-worldly, it is infinitely loved and infinitely hated as was Christ Himself. But only that which is Divine can be infinitely hated and infinitely loved. Therefore the Church is Divine.”

  - Bishop Fulton J. Sheen (1895-1979)

To start. Which of the more than 200 popes is the antichrist?

Somewhere in between these two? (Pope Francis bearing the remains of Saint Peter) In truth, each and every false prophet that claims the Church fell into apostasy, or that she is the antichrist, cannot provide a date, or explain why no Pope has ever denied that the Christ is come in the flesh.

False prophets. Not just the LDS and JWs have them.

Yeah, it seems…no…is complete lunacy to say the pope is the antichrist.

1 John 2:22

Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.

Hmmm,mm…SAID NO POPE EVER!

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

SAID NO POPE EVER!

Pontifex, or pontiff, means a chief priest. That’s what the Pope is. It can also mean a “bridge builder” as Pope Francis noted:

One of the titles of the Bishop of Rome is Pontiff, that is, a builder of bridges with God and between people.
vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/speeches/2013/march/documents/papa-francesco_20130322_corpo-diplomatico_en.html

I am ALSO wondering what your take is on all this is… Do YOU have an opinion of your own, or are you just going to keep asking us about ours? After all, if you’re going to ask of us, maybe it’s time you show YOUR cards?

I have been seraching for YEARS and have yet to find ANY history put forward that even hints at a Pope being the anit-Christ. All I can ever find are spurious claims by the people you just mentioned, wiht ZERO credible sources…relying solely on fantasy, logical fallacy, and straight-up falsehoods.

Essentially the pope is a continuation of the pagan emperors hence the title Pontificus Maximus? …First Pontificus Maximus-this a title for the emperors that had a pagan meaning no? How did the pope get the title and hence Pontiff? Basically how was the title transferred?

Pontificus Maximus, as already noted, is a title that means “Bridge Builder”. It is not a formal title of the Pope/Pontiff. The title “Pope” comes from the word referring to a “dad” or “papa” and alludes to the Pope being a father-figure of sorts, much the same way Paul was “father to the Gentiles”, as he refers to himself in Scripture. “Pontiff”, as explained, is in regards to the cheif Priest. The Pope is the Vicar of Christ (the “representative”…successor of Peter to whom the keys of the Kingdom were given (see also Is 22:22)). The arguemnt by those you mention is that, IF the Pope has a title similar to what pagans used (which he doesn’t), then he must be pagan. Here’s the problem…pagans also called their gods “God”. So is God, and God’s religion, pagan just becaue there is some pagan resemblance in a name? No, it’s a logical fallacy and fails to pass the test of reason.

Also the roman Curia is the imperial cult. The Holy Roman Empire is essentially the Beast’s kingdom.

Nothing in history even remotely supports this. Same fallacious reasoning as above. "Since some Romans coverted and the Magesterium used titles that sound “roman’ (Latin), that means the Church became pagan” is the logical conclusion of that argument…and it’s a ridiculous one.

Also the Holy Roman Empire and catholic history.

Have you studied any actual Christian history? Or are you going to take the word of those you mentioned in your OP and hope they give an accurate account of history. I dare say none of them has cracked open an actual history book except one by some random author who “claims” to have “studied” the history, yet can’t seem to point to any credible and acclaimed historical source material. I’ve even heard, “my grand-dad said the Church made up stuff…and therefore I beleive it…”. :rolleyes:

Take some time to study some actual history. You will learn alot.

I have read a lot of anti-catholic literature and heard rants against the Catholic Church from my grandmother, and mother. Yes I am sincerely interested in Catholicism. Unfortunately I am not a in a Beneficial position regarding discussing it.

I knew a family of Catholics when I was was little until I was ten, they were at least very apathetic about God. The mother didn’t want to read a bible supposedly because the letters were to small? When I was that age I don’t know what my parents and them discussed I would assume my parents made efforts to proselytize or at least felt pity on their souls. I know one ex-catholic who doesn’t like the church and became church of Christ.

My grandmother being Assemblies of God-pentecostal and dispensationalist to the bone you can assume after reading Tim Lahaye, several Non-denominational pastors, watching John Hagee and Pat Robertson doesn’t have much to say except vile against the catholic church. She also knew a priest or better yet knew a family who had a priest they tried to proselytize on the reasoning(they did this till he died) you can’t forgive sins and then give me a look of oh well what a tragedy. She also has said as I’ve learned as a lot of the Pentecostals do the church basically went off the rails when Saint John died.
My mother also is completely dispensationalist by you guessed it the left behind series. She also while being secure in her beliefs would never accept me becoming catholic-to her it would mean she failed me eternally.

And yes I’ve read a lot of prophecy and conspiracy websites that have vile against the church-you don’t think those doubts would linger no matter how much I would like for them to go away. Oh and for my mother when I said I was tired of Baptists she angrily said "what are you going to be church of Christ, Druid, agnostic?

So while honestly while I am attracted to the church either a miracle would have to happen or I would have to be living a thousand miles away to become catholic without inciting a disaster!

Also those doubts don’t go away. You know that lingering feeling that you are participating in the fornications of the great harlot and you have left the gospel for spiritual deadness.

Thank you for the answer Rock! Given all the vitriolic influences, heresy, and backwards appalachian bombastic family attitudes you have had to endure, I think you have your miracle, in that you are still interested in the Catholic Church! Adding to that, the fact that you would even consider moving a 1000 miles away to be Catholic and avoid a family scandal, I am downright impressed!

You might find that these doubts that you still experience will diminish, once you start to avoid all the vile, prophetical, conspiratorial, termite ridden, anti-Catholic websites! It is no wonder that you still experience doubt after wading through all of that sewage! I deeply admire your tenacity, and commend your efforts to stay focused on your professed interest in the Catholic Church despite all these seemingly insurmountable obstacles! :clapping:

I do have one “lingering” question myself though that I would appreciate you answering. Please tell us exactly what you meant, when you wrote:

“You know that lingering feeling that you are participating in the fornications of the great harlot and you have left the gospel for spiritual deadness.” I eagerly await your response on THAT question, and once again, keep up the good fight!:popcorn:

:thankyou:

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.

Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.

Amen.

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