The Long Night Of Apostasy


#1

In chapter 40 of James E. Talmage "Jesus The Christ", Talmage goes into "extensive" detail in what appears to be a universal apostasy throughout the church. It appears to me that Talmage explains that this "apostasy" didn't occur all at once but occurred during a long interval of time. The exact date is not said but one can assume that it occurred between the death of the last apostle and 1820. So, for those who have read this chapter or even the entire book for that matter, what are your thoughts of his "evidence" and does Talmage bring up any important points? Is any of it true? Or just a bunch of hooplah.

here's a link to those who have not read it. its chapter 40. gutenberg.org/files/22542/22542-h/22542-h.htm#chapter_40


#2

[quote="ErinGoBragh, post:1, topic:287633"]
In chapter 40 of James E. Talmage "Jesus The Christ", Talmage goes into "extensive" detail in what appears to be a universal apostasy throughout the church. It appears to me that Talmage explains that this "apostasy" didn't occur all at once but occurred during a long interval of time. The exact date is not said but one can assume that it occurred between the death of the last apostle and 1820. So, for those who have read this chapter or even the entire book for that matter, what are your thoughts of his "evidence" and does Talmage bring up any important points? Is any of it true? Or just a bunch of hooplah.

here's a link to those who have not read it. its chapter 40. gutenberg.org/files/22542/22542-h/22542-h.htm#chapter_40

[/quote]

James E. Talmage also wrote a book called the Great Apostasy. It is a bunch of hooplah.

To summarize:
Joseph Smith made up a bunch of stuff that is contrary to Christianity.
Joseph Smith is right
Therefore the Catholic Church is wrong.

Mormon fantasy


#3

My favorite part is the first sentence. "For over seventeen hundred years on the eastern hemisphere, and for more than fourteen centuries on the western, there appears to have been silence between the heavens and the earth." then the "footnote" after it gives us no evidence to support this claim. :confused:


#4

[quote="ErinGoBragh, post:3, topic:287633"]
My favorite part is the first sentence. "For over seventeen hundred years on the eastern hemisphere, and for more than fourteen centuries on the western, there appears to have been silence between the heavens and the earth." then the "footnote" after it gives us no evidence to support this claim. :confused:

[/quote]

Yes, "no evidence to support this claim," is a reoccurring theme in Mormon history.


#5

[quote="Stephen168, post:4, topic:287633"]
Yes, "no evidence to support this claim," is a reoccurring theme in Mormon history.

[/quote]

I just wonder how they keep their stories straight. :shrug:


#6

[quote="ErinGoBragh, post:5, topic:287633"]
I just wonder how they keep their stories straight. :shrug:

[/quote]

In the military we were told to obey our last order first; I think it is similar in Mormonism. Except in Mormonism you just forget the earlier order completely.


#7

[quote="Stephen168, post:6, topic:287633"]
In the military we were told to obey our last order first; I think it is similar in Mormonism. Except in Mormonism you just forget the earlier order completely.

[/quote]

That's a good way of putting it actually. And thank you for your service! I have 2 cousins in the military so i can appreciate the sacrifice. Thank You.


#8

[quote="ErinGoBragh, post:1, topic:287633"]
Or just a bunch of hooplah.

[/quote]

It's an ebook.

It's not even well-formatted.

hooplah


#9

[quote="Julia_Mae, post:8, topic:287633"]
It's an ebook.

It's not even well-formatted.

hooplah

[/quote]

well thats just the link I used so that people had access if they haven't read it yet. But why do you feel its hooplah? I think it raises some interesting points but clearly aren't backed by an significant sources.


#10

I view it as a conspiracy theory. A realm of myth, where imagination runs wild.


#11

And the LDS will tell you over and over that they never "tear down" other religions.


#12

If there was silence between heaven and earth, explain all the miracles and heavenly visitations during that time.

Even the Mormon can;t really accept that as they believe John and the Three Nephites walked the earth during that time. Are we to believe God had FOUR of his best people down here and completely cut them off from heaven?

The Total Apostasy is a necessary lie to the bigger lie that the LDS Church is the true restored church.


#13

[quote="TexanKnight, post:12, topic:287633"]
If there was silence between heaven and earth, explain all the miracles and heavenly visitations during that time.

Even the Mormon can;t really accept that as they believe John and the Three Nephites walked the earth during that time. Are we to believe God had FOUR of his best people down here and completely cut them off from heaven?

The Total Apostasy is a necessary lie to the bigger lie that the LDS Church is the true restored church.

[/quote]

There either was an apostasy or there wasn't, and according to the many many documents and testimonies of people from the time that Christ was crucified to now clearly shows that God does not play favorites and provides just as much communication with us now as he did in 1012 ad and 100 ad. To many times, LDS members just tell me that the scriptures prophesy of a total apostasy but can't provide me with facts and documentation on when and how. I don't understand why someone would want to believe that God was so angry that he decided to reclaim his authority after Jesus Christ just established it and says "Father, do not blame them, they no not what they do". Sounds like to much work and fruition coming to naught with an apostasy. Who knows, maybe i'm just blowing smoke out my ears.:shrug:


#14

[quote="ErinGoBragh, post:9, topic:287633"]
well thats just the link I used so that people had access if they haven't read it yet.

[/quote]

There's someplace else to read it?


#15

[quote="Julia_Mae, post:14, topic:287633"]
There's someplace else to read it?

[/quote]

If you have the actual book lol like I do. Pretty sure you can pick it up in a religion section at barnes and noble. It was given to me as a gift from my cousin.


#16

Okay, well, it's out of copyright so I'm a little surprised. Always something new to learn.

But then, I think hooplah in 1915 is still hooplah today.

Maybe you could pick one single factoid at a time to discuss. Otherwise it's fairly unwieldy.


#17

It isn't out of copyright, it has been maintained by the Mormon church's book publisher, Deseret Book, which has it available as hardbound, paperback, soft cover, leather-bound, book on CD, ebook and a Spanish edition.


#18

[quote="Julia_Mae, post:16, topic:287633"]
Okay, well, it's out of copyright so I'm a little surprised. Always something new to learn.

But then, I think hooplah in 1915 is still hooplah today.

Maybe you could pick one single factoid at a time to discuss. Otherwise it's fairly unwieldy.

[/quote]

and my factoid is the apostasy itself....


#19

[quote="ErinGoBragh, post:18, topic:287633"]
and my factoid is the apostasy itself....

[/quote]

I'm guesing she was referring to this statement:

[quote="ErinGoBragh, post:9, topic:287633"]
I think it raises some interesting points but clearly aren't backed by an significant sources.

[/quote]

What is a point raised that you find interesting?


#20

"In her unrestrained abandon to the license of arrogated authority, the Church of Rome hesitated not to transgress the law of God, change the ordinances essential to salvation, and ruthlessly break the everlasting covenant, thereby defiling the earth even as Isaiah had foretold.[1511] She altered the ordinance of baptism, destroying its symbolism and associating with it imitations of pagan rites; she corrupted the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper and befouled the doctrine thereof by the vagary of transubstantiation"

To me, this is a very strong and influential portion for why mormons are against Catholics. Talmage makes some very stern accusations that the Roman Catholic Church has defiled pretty much everything sacred. But Talmage doesn't use scripture to back up his claims but rather uses another lds book as its source. It seems to me that lds theology simply sources each other to knock around theories of why Catholicism is wrong. My cousin gave me this book in hopes that this particular chapter would show me the error of my ways and the errors of Christ's Church. But all its shown me is a man telling me It's wrong.


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.