I cannot support the church in this.
We had the mass migration of pagan Germans into the Western Roman Empire a millennia and a half ago which led to the Dark Ages and caused much tragedy. Today we are potentially talking about vastly larger numbers of people in a technologically advanced world.
Such policies encourage the movement of never ending numbers of people who threaten the cultural communities of so many throughout Europe. To ignore the threat to these people is gross negligence in my opinion.
Good on the Italians. They are not bad people for loving their own communities and wanting to engage with the world as Italians and not be subsumed by the world.
I cannot support the church in this.
The day the Church starts mandating that all of its monasteries, rectories, seminaries, colleges, the Vatican, and all other housing or programs have twenty to thirty percent of the people be foreign born, including a significant portion being Muslims, is the day I’d find her speaking from a consistent position.
When Jesus came to us,there wasn t any " Christian"…
How did God manage with just one man from the desert: John the Baptist,?
Good for us that He didn t freak out nor decide to complain and give up because it was a mess,which it was. And much worse probably.
The Church isn t proposing anything chaotic,neither rejecting somebody dying at your door.
Working together, protecting,integrating.
Gosh we have a heart and a brain.And resources.
We really need to breathe,read and pray.
There is a lot going on slowly and in a positive way. But that won t make the front pages.
Peace on earth…
The Pre-Vatican II Church would never have taken this position. That says everything in my opinion.
From 1815 to 1932, 60 million people left Europe .
And our ancestors received them ,lodged them, fed them and kept them safe until they found a job in what is known as " The Immigrants Hotel "(Hotel de los Inmigrantes) near the port.
The Church probably didn t need to say then what people had already naturally incorporated through her teachings.
And here we are together. As one.
Not the same grace.
As you should know the situations are very different.
It makes a lot of people angry when people pretend this is about compassion.
This is a complete disrespect of and intentional threat to Western civilisation and its communities.
It comes from Left wing insanity who want to see such things destroyed and another incarnation of their community destroying ideology.
It hurts how Europeans may forget how they were received. With wide open arms. And of course it reshaped the Americas,Abucs. And same as us, not everyone was a saint.
And the world didn t end,and we made it through and blended,and not without difficulties,and yellow fever,and much hardship, but today we can identify ourselves as a nation and that is a blessing.
That is where I am coming from,Abucs.
In all honesty…
and where I am coming from is that you have been conned into accepting a never ending immigration system that will literally destroy nations. That is where I am coming from.
People are not going to stand by and watch others destroy nations and all that this entails because others don’t realise they are being conned.
I have to look up " conned". Just a second,please…
If you mean " you" by the Americas, I think there is quite a variety of issues and reactions by country.
If we have been " conned" ,in our case( Argentina)it was political. And a whole of a story.
But not the Church. It is very down to earth here. We had to. We kind of do not deal with " vapour" any longer but very concrete problems.
There Church is very concrete here,our priests and Bishops very aligned. No room for false compassion. Nor tricks.
I do not know how to express it,but they walk the walk here,and get into the mud. When the Church speaks,they know what they are talking about. Our priests and Bishops are very accessible as well.
I do not know if this is what you mean,Abucs.
Perhaps there is something you have in mind I cannot fully grasp
There are not 10’s of millions of people trying to get to Argentina right now.
An ‘open arms policy’ by countries where people want to migrate will mean they literally will become minorities in their own countries. Their nations will be destroyed along with their history, culture, perhaps language, humour, way of life, self sufficiency, everything.
It is a terrible thing to wish upon a people and yet some do in the name of compassion.
That is wrong, and it is wrong that people should try to sell that as compassion.
Well,not 10 Millions but considering we are broke as we almost are,it feels like 10 Millions…
Ours is a political issue ,and a bad policy of distribution: Buenos Aires is like a magnet and overcrowded. There is much lack of coordination among provinces
And arms wide open, doesn’t mean " peace ,love,and rock’n roll". It shouldn’t . That isn t what the Church is advocating for,but none is the right to reject Venezuelans fleeing from poverty and the madness they have been enduring for years. They are received and given proper documentation.
And immigration from Paraguay and Bolivia keeps flowing. Now Colombians too.
And there are problems,yes. Comes with it. It always did.
I do not mean to change your mind, all I would like to transmit is that it isn t the Church that promotes " invasion" but " integration".
And in order to be able to receive,protect and integrate, there is need to use the head as well as the heart. And coordinate efforts. And order.
Mercy and Justice go together. And we all belong. As in a family. No more,no less.
It depends on the numbers grace. 1000 is integration, 10’s of millions is an invasion whether the church realises it or not. They have no excuse not to realise it.
I am in the Philippines now with a population of over 100 million people. The huge majority of these people would migrate to the West if they could. In 2 or 3 weeks I will be in Nepal and Bangladesh, these countries between them have a population of 200 million, again most would migrate to the West if they could. I may go to Pakistan which has a population of 200 million by themselves, to say nothing of India and China. A migration policy that does not strongly dissuade illegal migration will mean that huge numbers of people will go to the West. Transport and communication is much better now and there is an industry that will funnel people to the West because of the demand. If these people don’t go then their children will, and if not them then their children’s children and this is just a handful of the many nations that will exploit the bad migration policies of the west based not on compassion but politically correct suicide…
If you look at Africa the projected INCREASE in population there over the next 30 years will be 1.3 billion people. So the increase alone in one generation will be more than western Europe plus the United States alone. Again generation after generation of these people will be headed for Europe and America for the foreseeable future, There will be no Europe of America left unless the West does what every other area does and control its migration.
The more people that are let in the harder it will be to stop this process. The more likely it will be to increase.
It is invasion. It is wrong and the people who advocate it are wrong.
Now I see your worries. And you are obviously familiar with a different part of our world. With its own particular issues.
I had never heard your perspective so directly,and I can hear how different it sounds.
All I can say,is that we have been dealt with with a strong hand as a people,and that our Bishops have held us dearly but to task. And that means holding us and our authorities to dialogue and solving our problems,even when that meant oil and vinegar sit down and address the most difficult issues. Not run away,but trust,entrust ourselves and face our issues. As a people .
And this is the struggle I read and hear Latin American Bishops holding their flock to.
And the Bishop I remember ,now our Pope, was a man well aware of what surrounded him.
Let us pray that he receives the strength he needs in such difficult times.
I appreciate I could hear your perspective today,Abucs. Thank you for that and for your time. We are always learning something.
I don’t support this approach either; but it is not the church from whom my support is withheld; it is from the people in the church who have taken this position. It is unfortunate to have to distinguish between the church and the clergy because we would like to think they were pretty synonymous, but how to deal with immigration is as much a political issue in Italy as it is in the US, and we are under no obligation whatever to accede to the political judgments of the clergy. Disagreeing with them is not dissenting from the church.
Thanks you Ender. I love the church but I see it dying in Australia because people have not got the b*lls to stand up and be Catholic. At the risk of making this political we need more rigidity in having the courage to be Catholic first and make the Church great again.
Honestly, the church is dying in Australia because of a lack of b*lls and a subservience to the politically correct religion, including immigration.
I am skyping with my parents now. My father has just come back from a St Vincent De Paul meeting where he is the treasurer. They didn’t have a quorum and so the meeting was abandoned. The parish was supposed to be a beacon of multiculturalism where we all come together but it is a lie. It is a charade. The Tongan and the Samoan communities who between them are the bulk of the parish are now fighting. The next group are the elderly white whose children don’t attend mass. Now the Samoan and Tongans are now fighting again (which is not unusual) and both of them now are refusing to attend the church. What a complete mess this multicultural c*ap is.
Catholic first. Each of the Samoans and Tongans want control of the church. Nearly all of the young children who attend come from these groups. Every week at mass the children are invited for a blessing to come up to the altar. Out of 60 children you might get two white and a handful of Asians. Now they are the only ones attending because of the Islander pull out. We have 3 choirs, one Tongan, one Samoan and one Asian. They won’t sing together and they take turns each week being the church choir. Many times when one Islander group are the official choir many of the other Islander group won’t turn up to mass.
The church is dying not just on a Parish level but in Australia. It needs migrants to keep the pews 1/4 filled and the Church can’t keep their kids.
I better stop now because I am so fed up with this false left wing religion in the church causing it to die.
Have some &&&&&&&&& b*lls.
Immigrants, including European, weren’t received with open arms. The only people to ever welcome them were the wealthy (and now the corporate executive class) who want cheaper labor to make them even richer.
It is sad that this is the case. But it seems universal. In the US the biggest issue is with the Hispanic people. It seems the only people foolish enough to not defend their history and culture are the natives.
In the US the Church needs immigrants not because they fill the pews and contribute financially. It needs them because it gets hundreds of millions from the government to care for them.
This isn t true…In fact it is the opposite. Most of the immigrants at that time arrived with nothing and not only found a job,but many became very well off,some even rich through honest labour here in the Americas.
Plenty of examples .Almost the story of every inmigrant of that time. Thanks God…
No, what I said is true. Your evidence for your position doesn’t negate mine. Yes, immigrants found jobs. As I said the wealthy and corporate executives were happy to employ them as they worked for lower wages. Motivated immigrants can get wealthy. One reason is they have lower living standards then natives. Also they tend to be particularly motivated to work.
But the average American wasn’t welcoming of these immigrants. There tended to be discrimination and hostility towards them always.
All right…not everybody received such a warm welcome .
But they were lodged and cared for( all right…some reluctantly perhaps…) until they could find a job.
Note exnhilo,that I referred to the " Hotel de los Inmigrantes" which I visited here in Buenos Aires. Humbling experience…and an idea of what it meant to arrive from so far away,and have some bed and food to count on.