Why should anyone think you are right when you haven’t presented a refutation or a logically consistent argument. Lol. Stating your opinion does not make you right. You just seem like a bitter and nasty person who is here to attack peoples faith rather than dialogue rationally with them…
If you edit your first post to use I think I wouldn’t find it as offensive. Still bad but not over the line. If you don’t I’ll be flagging it.
Well then, take the Christian concept and dogma out of the equation. Do you think G-d might give you a higher meaning for your existence, others’ existence, and the existence of the universe and beyond? A meaning which transcends even your personal happiness, your own moral values, your logic and reasoning, your sense of justice and mercy, your aesthetics; a meaning which reconciles contradictory notions, a surreal sense of order, purpose, substance beyond your senses, a wisdom that comes from the heart as well as the mind, an inner peace that transcends human definitions of good and evil, transcends pain and suffering, and inspires joy and fulfillment? Would such a G-d contribute to your earthly life and the lives of others by affording more understanding of its essence?
Yeah, lisaandlenin, we’re nice people.
HOW COULD YOU SAY THAAAAAAAAT!?
Yea, I’ve always thought God obeyed his own laws. And one primal law in science (and all other areas) is, “for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.” If there is a spirit of evil in the world (and there is) there must be a spirit of good, call it a Holy Spirit.
Our world is defined by opposite poles, hot/cold, light/absence of light-darkness, up/down, etc. etc. it keeps everything in balance.
Well, there you have it, then. Guess I should skip going to Mass tomorrow. After all, without any supporting argument, @lisaandlena has declared it stupid. At least I get to sleep in…
I agree. Pot, meet kettle.
Well… close, but not quite. You were just being brutal. Big difference.
p.s., if you’re suggesting that you have some expertise in human nature, then I bet you already know that it’s a lot easier to rationalize that one’s position is correct if you demonize your interlocutor and call him an idiot. It doesn’t mean that he is, of course, and it definitely doesn’t mean that you’re right in your beliefs… it just makes you feel a lot better about your position if you convince yourself that you’re superior.
One thing that I’ve learned from this forum is that logically consistent arguments and refutations are pointless. People believe what they want to believe, and there are no arguments, no matter how logically consistent, that can’t be refuted or dismissed by some means or other. This isn’t an indictment of anyone’s character, it’s just the way people are. They see what they want to see.
But you seem to be a reasonably rational person, or at least you try to be. Your threads and your posts attest to that fact. But there’s one thing that I’m curious about. Arguments such as Aquinas’ Five Ways, and the existence of evil, may argue for the existence of God, but how does one get from the existence of God to Catholicism?
Fair enough, the supporting argument has been presented. And I’ll ask you the same question, how is it that you’ve come to believe that Catholicism is true?
It has been? All I can see are claims that people are illogical and stupid. Maybe you can point to the 'supporting argument"?
I’ve examined the claims of Catholicism, the documents of the Church and the books of Scripture, and come to the conclusion that they’re reasonable. Is there really any other rational answer?
You’re sure that you don’t want to reconsider that answer?
Why should I?
This is going to be a pointless argument that helps neither of you.
That should be bullet point number one in the forum rules.
Okay, let’s hope that IWantGod has a better answer.
Umm… what’s a better answer than “I find it to be credible”?!?
I mean, that’s the one answer – short of a dissertation on why I find it to be credible – that should inspire confidence in a rationalist, shouldn’t it?
But at the same time it’s an answer that a rationalist would find quite troubling. Perhaps IWantGod will be able to understand why. But being Sunday we may need to give him/her some time to reply.
Indeed! It is troubling to learn that one applies the same rules of logic as others, but reach different conclusions!
It’ll be a real test of whether your go-to response is “idiots!”…
Why a hardened materialist or skeptic would like an explanation for why there is something rather than nothing so long as God wasn’t involved?
They can’t stand the idea of Christians being correct i imagine. They can’t stand the idea that theists really do have a rationally acceptable defense of what they believe, and so they really don’t seek a genuine understanding and reject arguments out of hand. That’s why they often produce straw-men. And in their arrogance they suppose that all Christians by definition are gullible idiots or insane. That’s preferable for some people. After-all, who wants to be judged, who really wants to admit that they are sinners, and who wants to bathe in the irony that in reality the all knowing and rational atheists were the ones that were ignorant.
There are some Atheists out there that take the qeustion of God seriously however and wouldn’t go around calling Christians stupid for fear they might be wrong. And even if they did think that Christians were wrong they would at least understand the principle of treating people how you want to be treated.
I think the crucial word here is not “evil”, but “really.” Once a man realizes (pun intended) that something is real - that it has existence independent of my thoughts or feelings or perceptions or desires, but it IS - then true faith in God is not far away. The correlation in the modern world of disbelief in God, with the love of “virtual reality” is no mere coincidence. When a man wants to see everything in the light and being of himself, himself the definer of all good, of all reality, of all value, of all moral judgment, then a real God has been moved out of his universe into the void of irrelevance.
BUT when things are seen to exist, whether he likes it of not - when the universe is seen to be whether he lives of dies or ever existed - then his hubris, his vain self-centeredness, is defeated; the journey to reality has begun, and has humbled him to see Truth.