The Memory Hole


#1

Why is it that since Vatican II, we never hear references to Papal Encyclicals condemning Communism, or Modernism, or Free Masonry? Why is there such a sharp delineation between what the Church used to speak out on, and what issues are addressed today?

It’s almost as if Church leaders are embarrased at the positions taken by pre-Vatican II Popes. And why aren’t tradition-minded Catholics challenging them on these things?

I think Vatican II has been a disaster for the Church. Look at church attendance compared to forty years ago. Look at vocations. Look at the number of priests getting into trouble today, and compare this with the pre-consular Church.


#2

Communism is basically dead and will eventually become irrelevant in China, North Korea, Vietnam, and Cuba and die out. There is no big Communist threat nowadays.

Our current Pope, while he was Cardinal Ratzinger issued a declaration as Prefect of the CDF with the approval of Pope John Paul II confirming Catholicism and Freemasonry are not compatible and any Catholic who becomes a Freemason commits a grave sin and cannot receive Communion.

The Church has frequently spoken out against secularism (moderism) which clearly is a grave sin against the First Commandment.

Vocations here in the Philippines are fairly robust and many filipino priests are “exported” to the US and Europe.

Where is your source that Sunday Mass attendence is down. Which country are you talking about. Here in the Philippines Mass attendence is high (around 80%).

What do you mean by priests “getting into trouble”?


#3

I think you’re wrong on this. Why would the church need to harp on something that it has already dealt with?

We aren’t like some Protestants who have to keep up the comparison and contrast and controversy in order to keep the people stirred up. :rolleyes:

It’s almost as if Church leaders are embarrased at the positions taken by pre-Vatican II Popes. And why aren’t tradition-minded Catholics challenging them on these things?

See my point above. I’m one of those “tradition-minded Catholics” and I disagree with you that anyone is “embarrassed”.

I think Vatican II has been a disaster for the Church. Look at church attendance compared to forty years ago. Look at vocations. Look at the number of priests getting into trouble today, and compare this with the pre-consular Church.

Vatican II is not the problem. The misinterpretations of some of its teachings was. Nothing new there.The same thing happens all the time where human beings are concerned. However, the teachings of the church have not changed and all the things that you cite as problems are in fact beginning to turn around.

The pre-consular church had many problems as well. To try to assert that it did not is to begin your argument from a fallacy.

If you want to make this a “traditionalist” thread topic, I suggest that you PM a mod to have it moved to the traditional Catholicism forum because this is not really an apologetics topics. :shrug:


#4

I agree with ChurchMilitant.

Another thing - after every Council, there have been dissenters and abusers. However, the Holy Spirit ALWAYS wins in the end.


#5

I don’t believe that Communism is dead, merely dormant. We see the same “former” Communists still holding court, like Gorbachev, and Putin. Communist China is not only a military and economic threat to the US, it continues to harrass Christians, and Catholics in particular.

The Church not only does not speak out against Modernism, which was condemned by many Popes, church leaders today are promoting it, from communion in the hand, to the promotion of Evolution, and every other sort of novelty.

Perhaps mass attendance in high in the Philippines, but it has dropped off significantly in the US.

When I made reference to priests getting into trouble, I am referring to seminaries that encourage homosexuality, and bisops who cover up for them. These are the fruits of Vatican II.

Modernism is prevalent in the Church today, because of a lack of faith, displayed by Church leaders.


#6

When you speak of “misinterpretations” of Vatican II pronouncements, you are implying that the people who wrote them, as well as the people who signed them, were unable to express themselves clearly.

Do you really think that theologians, people who are highly educated in this area, could write something so poorly that it would later be misinterpreted? No, it was written vaguely, so that it WOULD be interpreted like this, at a later date.


#7

Then why is it that we have bishops and cardinals who are Freemasons, who have not been excommunicated?


#8

proof?


#9

The statement you have made amounts to a statement of fact. We are all eagerly awaiting for the names of these bishops and cardinals and the proof you have. Either put up or shut up!


#10

And freemasonrry, as an organized faith, is not longer as significant as it was. The worldview, the modern apollonism that it expressed, has taken many new forms, the more obvious of which is scientology. Its values are so widely held, however, that nothing like a counter-church is needed. Unlike in 18th Century France and Austria, the Church has been pushed to the margins of modern western society.


#11

oh goodness… did I kill the thread when I asked for proof??


#12

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