The Novus Ordo Has Saved The TLM


#1

I had a revelation last weekend. I realised that if the Novus Ordo mass was abrogated tomorrow all those people who like to personalise the Roman Rite would now be involved with the old mass.

If you’re the kind of trad that winces at Gothic vestments or such your head would explode after a few months of ‘enrichment’ of the old rite by liturgical progressives.

Funny when you think about it.


#2

I think this is a moot point as is. Yes, you’re probably right.

However, I think the larger question is: would this have been so if there never would have been liturgical changes? Would there have been 70s Tridentine Masses?

However, I think it is pointless from the traditionalist’s view to answer these.


#3

Complete, utter speculation. And usless, too.


#4

[quote="Big_Feet, post:3, topic:286532"]
Complete, utter speculation. And usless, too.

[/quote]

I don't think so. I think that the Novus Ordo has made many Catholics very much aware of what can be lost if taken for granted.


#5

[quote="HelenRose, post:4, topic:286532"]
I don't think so. I think that the Novus Ordo has made many Catholics very much aware of what can be lost if taken for granted.

[/quote]

This is the way I think the Novus Ordo has saved the TLM. As others have pointed out, in the days of our fathers and grandfathers, when the TLM was the norm, some people took it for granted. The lack of it, fostered a desire for it in its most beautiful form, as a reaction of the innovative masses of the 60’s and 70’s.

In the same way, I believe the TLM has also affected the Novus Ordo, as masses once again are becoming more reverent then they were in the early days after the council.


#6

[quote="YoungTradCath, post:2, topic:286532"]
However, I think the larger question is: would this have been so if there never would have been liturgical changes? Would there have been 70s Tridentine Masses?

[/quote]

Now there's an interesting thought experiment. Probably best not to think of the consequences too hard.


#7

70s Tridentine Masses?

Oh I can see it now! Joss sticks in the thurifer! Rainbow vestments with rickrack instead of gold! Bridge Over Trouble Water in chant!

:rotfl::hypno::rotfl::hypno:


#8

[quote="HelenRose, post:4, topic:286532"]
I don't think so. I think that the Novus Ordo has made many Catholics very much aware of what can be lost if taken for granted.

[/quote]

This.

I've met or corresponded with a number of Catholics who left the Church in the late 50s early 60s when they were young, expecting it would be there just like they remembered when they came home. Boy, were they surprised! One guy didn't even know the old Mass was gone when he returned sometime around 1990, if you can believe it.

They definitely value the EF whenever they can assist at it, as do I.


#9

=RogerDeCourcy;9361039]I had a revelation last weekend. I realised that if the Novus Ordo mass was abrogated tomorrow all those people who like to personalise the Roman Rite would now be involved with the old mass.

If you're the kind of trad that winces at Gothic vestments or such your head would explode after a few months of 'enrichment' of the old rite by liturgical progressives.

Funny when you think about it.

Hi Rodger,

Are you OLD enough to remember the EXTRODINARY Form of our Liturgy?:)

If my memory is correct and IMO, we had more parishes, more catholic Schools, More Vocations to the Priesthood; more Informed and fully practicing Roman Catholics, more world wide influence; more growth; more people regurarlly attending the Mass and the Sacrament of Confession [and therefore FAR more likely to get to heaven].:thumbsup:

So by friend, what AM I MISSING HERE?

*Am I saying the N.O. is to blame? NO! *:)

Its MUCH more profoundly complex than any one issue.:)

God has to be in charge. Amen!

pat/PJM


#10

[quote="Rich_C, post:8, topic:286532"]
This.

I've met or corresponded with a number of Catholics who left the Church in the late 50s early 60s when they were young, expecting it would be there just like they remembered when they came home. Boy, were they surprised! One guy didn't even know the old Mass was gone when he returned sometime around 1990, if you can believe it.

They definitely value the EF whenever they can assist at it, as do I.

[/quote]

I have a hard time understanding the complaints of somone who could leave the Church for 30 years. Obviously something was already wrong if they could leave the Church even as a teen. We think of the 50s as being such an idylic time, but the changes happening outside the church were already affecting Catholics no matter what the form of the Mass. We certainly can recognize the problems that happened during the decade or two after the close of the council, butwe should also recognize all the possible causes.

A priest in 1965 who was happy to "turn the altar around and rip out the altar rail" had been formed in a seminary before the council most likely. Even if he was just 35, he had lived most of his life during that romantized time. The seeds that resulted in your friends leaving the church and this hypothetical priest letting guitars in the sanctuary, were all planted before VII. :(


#11

[quote="Mrs_Sally, post:7, topic:286532"]
Oh I can see it now! Joss sticks in the thurifer! Rainbow vestments with rickrack instead of gold! Bridge Over Trouble Water in chant!

:rotfl::hypno::rotfl::hypno:

[/quote]

lol! Sounds like something my age would think of doing. :whacky:


#12

[quote="TrueLight, post:5, topic:286532"]
..........In the same way, I believe the TLM has also affected the Novus Ordo, as masses once again are becoming more reverent then they were in the early days after the council.

[/quote]

You are saying this as a fact and I do not believe it to be true.


#13

[quote="Rich_C, post:8, topic:286532"]
This.

I've met or corresponded with a number of Catholics who left the Church in the late 50s early 60s when they were young, expecting it would be there just like they remembered when they came home. Boy, were they surprised! One guy didn't even know the old Mass was gone when he returned sometime around 1990, if you can believe it.

They definitely value the EF whenever they can assist at it, as do I.

[/quote]

:confused: It's just for enough out there to be believed.


#14

[quote="Cristiano, post:12, topic:286532"]
You are saying this as a fact and I do not believe it to be true.

[/quote]

"In the same way, **I believe **the TLM has also affected the Novus Ordo, as masses once again are becoming more reverent then they were in the early days after the council."


#15

[quote="Big_Feet, post:3, topic:286532"]
Complete, utter speculation. And usless, too.

[/quote]

It's neither. If there was no new mass, the old would would have been modified to suit the tastes of reformers. The Novus Ordo didn't come out of thin air. The groundwork was laid for decades beforehand. It was only an oversight (or a miracle) that the old mass was not proclaimed abrogated.

We now expect mass to change. Change is normal. It was revised again only recently.

If the new Mass was abrogated tomorrow, clergy and their helpers would continue modifying the old mass to suit their tastes. CITH and altar girls started as acts of disobedience. Tinkering with the old mass would be minor by comparison. Unless you think there would be a mass outbreak of rigour?


#16

[quote="TrueLight, post:14, topic:286532"]
"In the same way, **I believe **the TLM has also affected the Novus Ordo, as masses once again are becoming more reverent then they were in the early days after the council."

[/quote]

In the early days after the council I was a kid going to Mass every Sunday. It was a hybrid Mass and other than use of the vernacular not much had changed. The choir still sang beautiful hymns, we still took communion on the tongue while kneeling at the rail, Nobody and I mean nobody dared talk in church. People still wore their Sunday best, and women covered their heads.

We had real, beautiful and packed midnight Masses and all the traditions like covering the Crucifix in Lent were still observed.

This was the sixties (I was born in 1958).

It wasn't really untill the mid-70s that things started to go downhill. When I stopped going to Church in 1976, we still kneeled for communion but it was ok to take it in the hand.

Somewhere between 1975 and 1997 when I returned the insipid hymns and experimentation took over.

But at least in French Canada it wasn't an immediate free-for-all immediately after the council. It was far more gradual and more or less in step with the decline in social mores in the same period.


#17

Unrelated to Catholic tradition --

Speculation leads to arguments

[LEFT]CLOSED[/LEFT]


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