The Ol' Mormon "Switcheroo"?

I heard something interesting in an anti-MormonISM video on Youtube.

Now we all (should) know that Mormonism considers the “Saved by Grace” doctrine
as heretical. I already knew that well, but in the video I was talking about before, the
person speaking actually cited Mormon scripture to expose this reasoning:**AND **I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in
the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came be-
fore me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind,
that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
But behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said un-
to me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man,
which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also , that I should give unto him mine own power; by
the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

  • Moses 4:1-3
    The person whom I was listening to about that passage pointed
    out that it was actually Satan who was offering Grace, then he
    goes further, suggesting that Jesus in Mormonism was actual-
    ly the one insisting on Laws and Works.

Interested, I decided to check this out and found this:[LEFT]“Jesus was willing to come to the earth, give His life for us, and take upon Himself our sins. He, like our Heavenly Father, wanted us to choose whether we would obey Heavenly Father’s commandments. He knew we must be free to choose in order to prove ourselves worthy of exaltation Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, ‘Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor’ (Moses 4:1). Satan wanted to force us all to do his will. Under his plan, we would not be allowed to choose. He would take away the freedom of choice that our Father had given us. Satan wanted to have all the honor for our salvation. Under his proposal, our purpose in coming to earth would have been frustrated”

  • Gospel Principles [Church Manual] (pp. 13, 15)
    [/LEFT]
    So [size=4]with that, I hav[size=4]’[/size]to ask: Am I understanding that [size=4]correctly[size=4]? [size=4]T[/size][/size][/size]hat Mormons not only [size=4]beli[size=4]ttle
    the “Sa[size=4]ved by [/size][/size][/size]Grace” as heresy, but ev[size=4]en go so far that it was offered by the Mormon Devil
    and that [size=4]the M[size=4]ormon Jesus suggest[size=4]ed the “Go[size=4]od Works” plan?![/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]
    [RIGHT]If so, talk about a 180°![/RIGHT]

Switcheroo is putting it mildly. Ignore the whole thing and pray for them, God Bless, Memaw

I think the distinction being made in the manual is between freedom of choice and bondage. Christ would have us free to choose him, Satan would force us to follow him.

Saved by grace is not hearsay, indeed we are saved in no other way. Our works are not sufficient. But there is still effort in turning to God. The Book of Mormon provides one of the clearest statements on the matter. Christ says, “And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them” (Ether 12:27). The humble know their weakness. If they come to God he will enable them to overcome it. In this manner they grow. Thus their works follow them.

The Book of Morman is not the Word of God, it is the word of man. God Bless, Memaw

Not that I like to go around defending Mormonism, but the passages in Moses you cited have more to do with free will/agency than being saved by grace. Mormons are taught that Jesus wanted to maintain our free will to choose to follow Heavenly Father’s commandments; however, Satan sought to take away our free will and force us to follow HF’s commandments.

Mormons are definitely much more works focused than Catholics. I rarely heard the word “grace” in all my years in the LDS church. There is a verse in the Book of Mormon (I can’t recall the cite off the top of my head but it’s either in 2 Nephi or Jacob) which states that we are saved by grace after all we can do. Every Sunday in church, the focus was always on what we need to do to be exalted. We rarely discussed the grace of God. Lots of Mormon guilt.

Mormons love to criticize Original Sin; however, when I learned about Original Justice/Original Sin in RCIA, a lot of my Mormon guilt lifted. I honestly felt less guilty and felt God’s grace significantly more. I have been amazed at how much Catholics talk about grace. I was always under the impression that Protestants were the ones who talked about grace all the time, and Catholics were constantly guilt-ridden and focusing so much on confession and penance. Misconceptions have been dispelled and I really see the grace of God at work in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. It is a wonderful gift!

they do? Would those “works that follow” include claiming he could use a rock to find treasure, committing adultery, cheating people in a bank scandal, using his position to get houses built for him, violating the constitution and etc?

I don’t see where “saved by grace” doctrine is considered heresy by the LDS Church. Taken from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism (EOM):
All of LDS theology also reflects the major premise of the Book of Mormon that without grace there is no salvation: “For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all that we can do” (2 Ne 25:23). The source of this grace is the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ: “Mercy cometh because of the atonement” (Alma 42:23)

Grace is then further identified as a source of three categories of blessings related to mankind’s salvation - unconditional blessings (e.g., creation, plan of salvation, removal of original sin), forgiveness of sins on the condition of repentance, baptism, and confirmation, and then finally grace/salvation merited through “enduring to the end.”

I’ve never heard anyone suggest that “salvation through grace alone” was part of Lucifer’s plan at the “Council in Heaven”, however I may be wrong. I always understood the scripture that Lucifer was trying to usurp God’s throne by offering his “counter-proposal” to the plan of God and Christ (without ever knowing how he was going to do it). Again, I took the following from the EOM:

Lucifer possessed character flaws, which finally manifested themselves in jealousy of the Christ and rejection of the Father’s plan. Just how he proposed to save every soul is not explained but it apparently allowed either no opportunity for sin or, if sin did occur, no condemnation for sin. As his reward for saving everyone, Lucifer demanded that God surrender his honor and power to Lucifer.

To be fair, I believe Janderich used that scripture to show that salvation through grace is a fundamental principle within LDS Church doctrine.

Amen. I felt the exact same way.

Tex,

Can you elaborate on the houses?

New for me…

Tx

PnP

Welcome to CAF, Taylor. May I ask what your current status is? You say you are LDS but your answer implies that you have either left or have at least have one foot out the door. It also implies that you know something of Catholic doctrine regarding sin.

Thanks.

It’s been canonized as LDS scripture. D&C Section 124, starting in verse 56. This is where the Mormon god commands them to build a boarding house in Nauvoo (the Nauvoo house) for Joseph Smith and his family to live and have income from taking in boarders. It was also a great way for Joseph to find plural wives.

lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/124

See also D&C 41:7 - And again, it is meet that my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., should have a house built, in which to live and translate.

[size=3]The Christian Gospel
[/size]
[LIST=1]
*]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoev-
er believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16) And
if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.
(Romans 11:6)
*]Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where
sin abounded, grace did much more abound (Romans 5:20). There-
fore it is of faith, that it might be by grace (Romans 4:16).
*]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [size=2]It is
the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his
workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath
before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10). [/size]
*]Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus
(Romans 3:24). Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but accord-
ing to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of
the Holy Ghost. (Titus 3:5)
*]That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe
in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(Romans 10:9)
[/LIST]

[size=3]The Mormon Gospel
[/size]
[LIST=1]
*]Grace consists of God’s gift to His children wherein He gave His Only Begotten
Son that whosoever would believe in Him and comply with His laws and ordinan-
ces would have everlasting life. (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pp. 353-354).

*]Grace is granted to men proportionately as they conform to the standards of
personal righteousness that are part of the gospel plan. (Bruce R. McConkie,
Mormon Doctrine, p. 339).
*]Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodli-
ness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your
might, mind, and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you (Moroni 10:32, Book
of Mormon)
*]As with all other doctrines of salvation, justification is available because of
the atoning sacrifice of Christ, but it becomes operative in the life of an in-
dividual only on conditions of personal righteousness (McConkie, Mormon
Doctrine, p. 408).
*]Certain saved-by-grace-alone fanatics flatter their followers into believing
they can be saved through no act other than confessing Christ with their
lips (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 287).
[/LIST]
[LEFT]

Man not saved by grace alone
12th LDS President Spencer W. Kimball -" One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan
and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the
grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is
needed for salvation. "

  • (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 206).
    **Salvation by grace is a lie **
    10th President Joseph Fielding Smith -“One of the most pernicious doctrines ever advocated by
    man, is the doctrine of ‘justification by faith alone,’ which
    has entered into, the hearts of millions since the days of
    the so-called ‘reformation’”
  • (The Restoration of All Things, p.192).
    **The blood of Christ is insufficient **
    10th President Joseph Fielding Smith -“But man may commit certain grievous sins — according to his light and
    knowledge – that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of
    Christ. If then he would be saved, he must make sacrifice of his Own life
    to atone – so far as in his power lies – for that sin, for the blood of Christ
    alone under certain circumstances will not avail”
  • (Doctrines of Salvation 1:134).
    [RIGHT]I don’t know . . .:rolleyes:
    [/RIGHT]
    [/LEFT]

If “the source of…grace” is in “the atoning sacrifice of Jesus,” there seems to be something of a gap between the source of this grace and what it had the power to effect.

Let me explain…

The sacrifice of Jesus must somehow have created the power of grace in itself or the sacrifice must have been the means by which grace was transmitted from a higher source, say the Heavenly Father.

If grace was originally sourced in the sacrifice of Jesus, that is a problem for Mormon theology, since the Heavenly Father began as a mortal human who transformed into God the Father. By what power (grace?) did this transformation take place? It seems a classic case of less becoming more if the grace to transform from human to divine status only came about with the sacrifice of Jesus.

Yet if the source of grace was in the Father, by what power did the original mortal form of the Heavenly Father become divine? If, by grace, then it could not have been sourced in Jesus’ sacrifice.

There seem to be large issues in Mormon theology with how lesser beings can become greater beings. Ostensibly, by grace, but there seem to be problems with the chronology or transmission of grace given the original limited physicality of human persons who have transformed into Gods.

Thanks. Sorry, I guess I should update my status to reflect my position more accurately.

In short - BIC multi-generational LDS, served a mission in Sweden, graduated from BYU, married in the temple, and active member, although my testimony had started slowly eroding soon after returning from the mission. About a year ago I felt like I was slacking as member and that I needed to recommit myself for my family’s sake, so I re-immersed myself in LDS doctrine. Problem was…I started with Joseph Smith. Second problem was…I used the internet. It all fell apart from there and the final nail came when I listened to the recording of the Swedish Rescue meeting with Marlin Jensen and Rick Turley; I realized there were no good answers and no good explanations for anything that came from Joseph Smith. In August, I met with my Bishop to let him know we were done with the LDS church.

In the meantime, my wife and I were talking at one point and admitted to each other that growing up we both had always a mysterious draw to the Catholic church. We decided to find out more, so I found this forum in March, read the catechism over the summer, watched as many RCIA videos as I could find on youtube, and started going to Mass a month ago. RCIA here started a couple weeks ago, so I guess we have about 6 months to go.

Your opening comment is not true. LDS believe that some one who has a real faith in Christ will try to do His will. Then, it is only through grace we are be saved. I use the Book of Mormon only to show our doctrine on grace:

“Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile
yourselves to the will of God, and not to the
will of the devil and the flesh; and remember,
after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only
in and through the grace of God that ye are
saved.” (2 Nephi 10:24)

Are you saying that Catholics believe nothing is required of us beyond believing?

Welcome to CAF, and welcome to RCIA, and soon (Easter 2014) WELCOME HOME!!!

Thanks for sharing your story. I’m not sure, but, I think I’ve read it recently on another forum. :thumbsup::smiley:

For if Abraham were justified by the law of works, he hath to glory in himself; but not of God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him who is justified by the law of works, is the reward reckoned, not of grace, but of debt.
But to him that seeketh not to be justified by the law of works, but believeth on him who justifieth ***not ***the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

  • JST Romans 4:2–5

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also
our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for
we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

  • 2 Nephi 25:23

Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him , and deny yourselves of all un-
godliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with
all your might, mind and strength,then is his grace sufficient for you, that by
his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect
in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

  • Moroni 10:32
  • I don’t know how Mormons miss it, but this is a big problem in the Christian World. *

As for Catholics upon what to do after believing, we don’t have to work to become
*WORTHY *enough to enter a Temple which (in Mormon thought) is the only way to
get back to “Heavenly Father.” Donation baskets are used in church, but it is not
a hard core doctrine to pay 10% of our income, which the Bible doesn’t even say.
We are not FORCED to wear special garments (I don’t like saying ‘underwear’) to
be counted *WORTHY *enough for reunion with our God. You are comparing apples
and rocks right now pal.

I simply pointed out your false statement and presented a brief statement on the LDS doctrine of “grace.” Then I asked a question that you did not even try to answer:

“Are you saying that Catholics believe nothing is required of us beyond believing?”

I am always so happy when I see entire families leave the LDS church! I have been in RCIA Since February and am planning on Easter 2014 as well.

The point of presenting JST-Rom. 4:2-5, 2 Nephi 25:23, and Moroni 10:32 was
to demonstrate that while of course Mormons say grace, I have yet to be con-
vinced that Mormons truly know what “Grace” means.

And on that question I answered that I didn’t even try to answer, I see I will have to repeat: As for Catholics upon what to do after believing, we don’t have to work to become
*WORTHY *enough to enter a Temple which (in Mormon thought) is the only way to
get back to “Heavenly Father.” Donation baskets are used in church, but it is not
a hard core doctrine to pay 10% of our income, which the Bible doesn’t even say.
We are not FORCED to wear special garments (I don’t like saying ‘underwear’) to
be counted *WORTHY *enough for reunion with our God…
I can’t give a simple “Yes” or “No”, because Mormons and Christians speak different
languages, as I pointed out using JST, 2 Nephi, and Moroni, but the answer given a-
bove should be pretty self-explanatory, being as detailed as it is.

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