The Only Way to Escape Hell


#1

THE ONLY WAY TO ESCAPE HELL

That's from one of Jesus' parables. The one about the Richman and Lazarus. There was a certain rich man, who, somehow, due to his opulence and pride, as well as his uncharitable life, he ended up with his being thrown in Hell as his afterlife punishment. Lazarus, on the other hand, due to his patience in spite of his ordeal, got to go to Heaven, which in Jesus' words, meant the bosom of Abraham.

And in Hell, the Richman lifted up his eyes, being in torments, look at Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and asked for mercy, if not for him, for his family. If Abraham could send Lazarus to his family to testify to them, so that they could escape the torments of Hell. Then, Jesus, through Abraham's mouth said: "They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them."

The Richman insisted that if one went to them from the dead, they would repent. Then, Jesus, through Abraham, said, "If they don't listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 16:19-31)

This prophectic parable has been fulfilled every day for about 2000 years. Christians believe that Jesus has been raised from the dead, but it seems to me, there is no way to persuade them to listen to Moses and the Prophets.

The expression "Moses and the Prophets" means the Law in one word. Christians prefer to listen to Paul and not to Moses. They either do not believe Jesus' words or that Hell does not exist. It was just a parable anyway, what the heck? At least, they should believe the Prophets for a change. The only way to set things right with God, so that our sins become as white as snow is to repent from our transgressions to the Law and return to obey it. (Isa. 1:18,19) Jesus couldn't have been more clear, that to listen to Moses is the only way to escape Hell.

Ben


#2

[quote="Shibolet, post:1, topic:306446"]
THE ONLY WAY TO ESCAPE HELL

That's from one of Jesus' parables. The one about the Richman and Lazarus. There was a certain rich man, who, somehow, due to his opulence and pride, as well as his uncharitable life, he ended up with his being thrown in Hell as his afterlife punishment. Lazarus, on the other hand, due to his patience in spite of his ordeal, got to go to Heaven, which in Jesus' words, meant the bosom of Abraham.

And in Hell, the Richman lifted up his eyes, being in torments, look at Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and asked for mercy, if not for him, for his family. If Abraham could send Lazarus to his family to testify to them, so that they could escape the torments of Hell. Then, Jesus, through Abraham's mouth said: "They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them."

The Richman insisted that if one went to them from the dead, they would repent. Then, Jesus, through Abraham, said, "If they don't listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 16:19-31)

This prophectic parable has been fulfilled every day for about 2000 years. Christians believe that Jesus has been raised from the dead, but it seems to me, there is no way to persuade them to listen to Moses and the Prophets.

The expression "Moses and the Prophets" means the Law in one word. Christians prefer to listen to Paul and not to Moses. They either do not believe Jesus' words or that Hell does not exist. It was just a parable anyway, what the heck? At least, they should believe the Prophets for a change. The only way to set things right with God, so that our sins become as white as snow is to repent from our transgressions to the Law and return to obey it. (Isa. 1:18,19) Jesus couldn't have been more clear, that to listen to Moses is the only way to escape Hell.

Ben

[/quote]

Firstly you can't escape Hell, you avoid going there in the first place.

Secondly Christ as the fulfilment of the Law and the Prophets is the new Moses, the New Adam and the New Covenant. Christ is the Way, the Truth and The Life and no one avoids Hell and comes to the Father except through him (Cf. John 14:6).


#3

In what way do we not listen to Moses and the Prophets?

They all speak to the coming of Christ and we believe in and accept Christ...So - what's the problem here?

Peace
James


#4

I don't know how much relevance this bears to this thread, but I seem to notice that there is a certain fringe group that believes that Paul perverted the gospel of Christ, and was not really an apostle at all. And if memory serves me there was another line or thread by this poster that attacked Apostle Paul


#5

[quote="Theophorus, post:2, topic:306446"]
Firstly you can't escape Hell, you avoid going there in the first place.

Secondly Christ as the fulfilment of the Law and the Prophets is the new Moses, the New Adam and the New Covenant. Christ is the Way, the Truth and The Life and no one avoids Hell and comes to the Father except through him (Cf. John 14:6).

[/quote]

Theophorus, have you ever read about the parable of the Richman and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31? Jesus proposed that parable, not I. The impression you have left on me as a result of reading my post is that I am responsible for that quote. I haven't changed a word.

Then, you declare that Christ was the fulfilment of the Law and the Prophets. Yes, it says so in Matthew 5:17-19 but he abolished neither. If you read the whole text, Jesus made it very clear that we are all supposed to do the same down to the letter. If any of us fail to do as he did and teach men so, we won't be worthy the Kingdom of God. It means that instead of abolishing the Law, he came rather to confirm it.

And you assert that Jesus is the new Moses, the new Adam and the new covenant, what
are we to think of Moses and the Jewish Covenant, shadows of the things that came with Jesus? Don't you feel this sounds like Replacement Theology to you?

Last but not least, you refute Jesus himself in this parable of his that no one can escape hell except through Jesus. He said "by listening to Moses" and you say, "no but rather by listening to Jesus." You remind me of Paul in Ephesians 2:15. Jesus said, "I have not abolished the Law" and Paul said that the Law was abolished on the cross" as if Jesus did
not know what he was talking about. Is it wonder that anyone can go berserk with this confusion?


#6

Shibolet,

The only reason we are objecting to your statement is because of the words you are using. You don’t “escape” from hell. Hell is eternally terrible; once you are there you burn, burn, burn for eternity… that means there is, quite literally, nothing to do, FOREVER, but suffer.

You should say “avoid” hell, not “escape” it.


#7

[quote="batman1973, post:4, topic:306446"]
I don't know how much relevance this bears to this thread, but I seem to notice that there is a certain fringe group that believes that Paul perverted the gospel of Christ, and was not really an apostle at all. And if memory serves me there was another line or thread by this poster that attacked Apostle Paul

[/quote]

This idea about Paul is also one you meet at times amongst a certain style of Muslim apologetics.


#8

[quote="batman1973, post:4, topic:306446"]
I don't know how much relevance this bears to this thread, but I seem to notice that there is a certain fringe group that believes that Paul perverted the gospel of Christ, and was not really an apostle at all. And if memory serves me there was another line or thread by this poster that attacked Apostle Paul

[/quote]

Batman, tell me something: What apostle was Paul, the 13th? According to a Jewish tradition of the First Century, several groups of pious men would gather in the number of 12
main disciples for Torah study and spread of the Word. Jesus had 12 Apostles. Just about
Jesus' crucifixion, Judas got lost and killed himself. As if the group could not do with 11, they replaced Judas with Mathias to fill the 12th slot vacated by Judas. (Acts 1:26)

Back to my question, what apostle was Paul? The apostle to the Gentiles? That's what he claimed to be in the introduction of his letters. But if you read Acts 15:7, Peter had been the one assigned with that mission to be the apostle to the Gentiles. To give you the benefit of the doubt, if Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, when did he ever decide to go to the Gentiles? All his life, from his first station in Damascus and until his last in Rome, he never ceased ministering to the Jews. (Acts 9:1,2; 28:17)

I wonder why you take this as an attack to Paul and not an urge to learn the truth about the NT. Unless you suppose I should accept by faith what cannot be explained. If you can't explain what I need to understand, let us give a chance to another before naming my quest as an attack.


#9

[quote="Shibolet, post:8, topic:306446"]
Batman, tell me something: What apostle was Paul, the 13th? According to a Jewish tradition of the First Century, several groups of pious men would gather in the number of 12
main disciples for Torah study and spread of the Word. Jesus had 12 Apostles. Just about
Jesus' crucifixion, Judas got lost and killed himself. As if the group could not do with 11, they replaced Judas with Mathias to fill the 12th slot vacated by Judas. (Acts 1:26)

Back to my question, what apostle was Paul? The apostle to the Gentiles? That's what he claimed to be in the introduction of his letters. But if you read Acts 15:7, Peter had been the one assigned with that mission to be the apostle to the Gentiles. To give you the benefit of the doubt, if Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, when did he ever decide to go to the Gentiles? All his life, from his first station in Damascus and until his last in Rome, he never ceased ministering to the Jews. (Acts 9:1,2; 28:17)

I wonder why you take this as an attack to Paul and not an urge to learn the truth about the NT. Unless you suppose I should accept by faith what cannot be explained. If you can't explain what I need to understand, let us give a chance to another before naming my quest as an attack.

[/quote]

Where does St. Paul contradict Moses?


#10

Shbolet, tell me something, what religion does ETC. represent in your profile? Just asking…


#11

Shibolet,
Could you do me a favor and lay out the point you are trying to put out in a nutshell? I'm rather confused as to what you are trying to prove.


#12

[quote="dshix, post:6, topic:306446"]
Shibolet,

The only reason we are objecting to your statement is because of the words you are using. You don't "escape" from hell. Hell is eternally terrible; once you are there you burn, burn, burn for eternity... that means there is, quite literally, nothing to do, FOREVER, but suffer.

You should say "avoid" hell, not "escape" it.

[/quote]

Dshix, talking about the Kingdom of Heaven, Jesus implied that it is not a place for us to get into but a state of mind that we invite into ourselves. (Luke 17:21) He said that the kingdom of Heaven is within ourselves. Therefore, a peaceful state of mind. If you take this
metaphorical explanation of Jesus into account with regards to Hell, it could be the same.
I mean, that there is no such a thing as a literal Hell, but what we cause to each other here on earth. Besides, the theme of hell was used here by Jesus in the text because it was a parable. Anything can be used in parables or allegories as symbols to be interpreted metaphorically. Wouldn't you like the idea that indeed there is no such a thing as an eternal hell to burn one forever? Besides, according to Genesis 3:22, man was banished from the Garden of Eden in order not to eat of the tree of life and live forever. It means that anyone who is born cannot live forever, let alone in hell. If we ever take this out of our mind, I am sure we will wake up happier next morning.


#13

[quote="JharekCarnelian, post:10, topic:306446"]
Shbolet, tell me something, what religion does ETC. represent in your profile? Just asking...

[/quote]

Bump


#14

[quote="Shibolet, post:12, topic:306446"]
Dshix, talking about the Kingdom of Heaven, Jesus implied that it is not a place for us to get into but a state of mind that we invite into ourselves. (Luke 17:21) He said that the kingdom of Heaven is within ourselves. Therefore, a peaceful state of mind. If you take this
metaphorical explanation of Jesus into account with regards to Hell, it could be the same.
I mean, that there is no such a thing as a literal Hell, but what we cause to each other here on earth. Besides, the theme of hell was used here by Jesus in the text because it was a parable. Anything can be used in parables or allegories as symbols to be interpreted metaphorically. Wouldn't you like the idea that indeed there is no such a thing as an eternal hell to burn one forever? Besides, according to Genesis 3:22, man was banished from the Garden of Eden in order not to eat of the tree of life and live forever. It means that anyone who is born cannot live forever, let alone in hell. If we ever take this out of our mind, I am sure we will wake up happier next morning.

[/quote]

Wait a minute, you are saying there is not a hell?

This is false, in fact, it is dangerous. If a person does not think they will merit eternal punishment they will not care to protect themselves from it in this life. We have eternal souls, and after we die, our soul will live on... to eternal reward or punishment.


#15

[quote="Shibolet, post:5, topic:306446"]
Theophorus, have you ever read about the parable of the Richman and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31? Jesus proposed that parable, not I. The impression you have left on me as a result of reading my post is that I am responsible for that quote. I haven't changed a word.

Then, you declare that Christ was the fulfilment of the Law and the Prophets. Yes, it says so in Matthew 5:17-19 but he abolished neither. If you read the whole text, Jesus made it very clear that we are all supposed to do the same down to the letter. If any of us fail to do as he did and teach men so, we won't be worthy the Kingdom of God. It means that instead of abolishing the Law, he came rather to confirm it.

And you assert that Jesus is the new Moses, the new Adam and the new covenant, what
are we to think of Moses and the Jewish Covenant, shadows of the things that came with Jesus? Don't you feel this sounds like Replacement Theology to you?

Last but not least, you refute Jesus himself in this parable of his that no one can escape hell except through Jesus. He said "by listening to Moses" and you say, "no but rather by listening to Jesus." You remind me of Paul in Ephesians 2:15. Jesus said, "I have not abolished the Law" and Paul said that the Law was abolished on the cross" as if Jesus did
not know what he was talking about. Is it wonder that anyone can go berserk with this confusion?

[/quote]

And Jesus is speaking to Jews before his death and Resurrection. For them, at that time, following Jewish law was the path to salvation.

Remember, Judaism was salvific before Christ's death and Resurrection. Only at His death was the Temple veil rent.

God Bless


#16

[quote="Tantum_ergo, post:9, topic:306446"]
Where does St. Paul contradict Moses?

[/quote]

Take a look at Acts 21:21. Paul was teaching the Jews to abandon Moses, to stop circumcising their children and give up the Jewish customs. That's just one occasion. There are many throughout his letters.

There is a famous one but a little too hard to understand. It is in Galatians 4:21-31. He compares the Jewish covenant to Hagar the slavewoman of Sarah and the Jews to Ishmael. At the end, in verse 30, he advises his followers to cast out both the slavewoman
and her son altogether because they could not share in equal terms the inheritance with the children born of the free woman. This because he had compared Christianity to Sarah and Christians to Isaac.


#17

I think Tantum ergo meant, “When does Paul contradict Moses morally or theologically?”


#18

[quote="JharekCarnelian, post:10, topic:306446"]
Shbolet, tell me something, what religion does ETC. represent in your profile? Just asking...

[/quote]

Obviously Shibolet as the thread has become quite fast paced in the last hour or so you have not had time to reply to my question above. Perfectly understandable, however when you do have a moment an answer to the question would be much appreciated.


#19

[quote="JharekCarnelian, post:10, topic:306446"]
Shbolet, tell me something, what religion does ETC. represent in your profile? Just asking...

[/quote]

Does one have to have a religion to post in this forum? What about if I were an atheist? Would I be allowed? Everything I say, I quote according to the text. All I need is to have an answer to my questions. Isn't the reason why we are all here, to study the Word of God? Never mind where I come from. The Truth is more important.


#20

[quote="dshix, post:11, topic:306446"]
Shibolet,
Could you do me a favor and lay out the point you are trying to put out in a nutshell? I'm rather confused as to what you are trying to prove.

[/quote]

The Truth Dshix, if you know what the Truth is, that's what I am trying to dicuss with you.


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