The Our Father


#1

Hello all! I decided to post this in the vocations forum because I believe this question reveals quite a bit about one's own discernment. If the mods think differently, they are free to move it where appropriate.

The question is this: which part of the Our Father (reproduced below in English and Latin, English for everyone to read and Latin because I like it :p) is most difficult to honestly say? Please post a comment explaining why. This is simply a discussion.

English
Our Father, Who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy Name. Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen.

Latin
Pater noster, qui es in cælis, sanctificetur nomen tuum. Adveniat regnum tuum. Fiat voluntas tua, sicut in cælo et in terra. Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie, et dimitte nobis debita nostra sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris. Et ne nos inducas in tentationem, sed libera nos a malo. Amen.

Thank you!


#2

I find "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" the hardest since there is something in the back of my mind analyzing whether or not I am forgiving my neighbour as I should. I hope and pray that I always am forgiving!

:gopray2:


#3

I did not vote because frankly I find none of it hard to honestly say. It is a prayer of petition and not a statement of fact. I do not brag of my own holiness in saying this prayer, but humbly petition for the items mentioned.

One thing I do have a problem with though is not with the prayer itself, but with how it is recited in mass, it has to do with the section, "and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

As recited in any group and, I suspect, as most say/hear it in private due to this recitation, the petition here is artificially divided and risks losing it's full meaning.

In mass instead of hearing -
"...forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."
We hear -
"...forgive us our trespasses.
(pause, breathe)
as we forgive those who trespass against us.

The reason it bothers me is because it risks losing the concept of our being judged by the same measure we use to judge.

Mt 7
1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get"

Perhaps it's just me....

Peace
James


#4

I voted "Thy will be done" but I need to qualify the statement. As noted above, I don't find any of it hard to say. My problem is accepting it and putting it into practice. I could just as easily chosen "as we forgive those who trespass..." and it would have been just as true in the context of living it, rather than saying it.


#5

I said, "as we forgive those who trespass against us." When we say this, we are telling God forget mercy and everything else, fogive us by the standards we forgive others. If we hold grudges and don't truly forgive others, then we are asking God to hold a grudge and to not fogive us. If we do not hold up to this and fogive others as God wants us to, then we are speaking the words of our own condemnation.


#6

[quote="JRKH, post:3, topic:248531"]
I did not vote because frankly I find none of it hard to honestly say. It is a prayer of petition and not a statement of fact. I do not brag of my own holiness in saying this prayer, but humbly petition for the items mentioned.

One thing I do have a problem with though is not with the prayer itself, but with how it is recited in mass, it has to do with the section, "and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

As recited in any group and, I suspect, as most say/hear it in private due to this recitation, the petition here is artificially divided and risks losing it's full meaning.

In mass instead of hearing -
"...forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."
We hear -
"...forgive us our trespasses.
(pause, breathe)
as we forgive those who trespass against us.

The reason it bothers me is because it risks losing the concept of our being judged by the same measure we use to judge.

Mt 7
1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get"

Perhaps it's just me....

Peace
James

[/quote]

I completely agree with you James. When I returned to the church as an adult (about 7 years ago), I had no idea that the meaning behind those words was that until our parish priest talked about it in his homily one day. When I learned that prayer as a child, that concept was not taught to me at all. And now, every single time I say that prayer (which is at least once daily), that particular line gives me pause. The meaning is very clear to me now, and I KNOW I can be more forgiving, especially in one particular situation in my life, but I'm not able to get there yet. So I pray for God's grace and help to find that true forgiveness.
So I guess what I'm saying as well is that none of it is hard to say, though I find that one part of it especially to be worrisome for me because of my own lack. If that makes any sense at all...:o


#7

[quote="IrishRush, post:6, topic:248531"]
I completely agree with you James. When I returned to the church as an adult (about 7 years ago), I had no idea that the meaning behind those words was that until our parish priest talked about it in his homily one day. When I learned that prayer as a child, that concept was not taught to me at all. And now, every single time I say that prayer (which is at least once daily), that particular line gives me pause. The meaning is very clear to me now, and I KNOW I can be more forgiving, especially in one particular situation in my life, but I'm not able to get there yet. So I pray for God's grace and help to find that true forgiveness.

[/quote]

Yep - I think that most of us learn the Our Father primarily at mass and as a result we learn it with this "cadence" and miss the very real connection.
I came to the realization even before I returned to the Church when, as a spiritual exercise, I began trying to "put into my own words". It forced me to look at the words of the prayer and consider carefully their meanings so that I could choose synonyms.

So I guess what I'm saying as well is that none of it is hard to say, though I find that one part of it especially to be worrisome for me because of my own lack. If that makes any sense at all...:o

Yes certainly it makes sense.

Peace
James


#8

First of all, no one knows for sure what exact words Our Father used when he gave us what he called the Lord's Prayer. What we have are translations from the Aramaic that Jesus used, or even translations of translations.
Since any good translation from the one language to another, it is not merely of words of Jesus, As it turns it turns out the form of the Our Father we Catholics are accustomed to is different from the one you refer in the Gospel of Matthew-and even more different from the form given in the Gospel of Luke. So, we really don't know what wors Jesus used. He may have used different words at different times. We do know the ideas he was trying to express at different times.
Leaders of all Christian churches acknowledge the desirability of a common text, but it is easier said than done, Since all CHristians know the Lord's Prayer if they know anything, emotional and devotional ties to the words they are accustomed to are very strong.
A different translation or form of the Our Father would certainly fulfill one's penance for confession,


#9

Thy will be done.

Largely because it's really hard to know what that means. We have the "big picture" ("Go spread the gospel and baptize..."), but the devil is in the details. Where do I fit in? What can I do? What does that mean for me? God's not big on sharing those too easily :p


#10

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