The Parousia, Christ's Second Coming

#21

“What fools we mortals be”, and isn’t it the truth.I read some of the threads regarding the second coming, Christ’s comments and scriptures mentioned in the Bible, and I think, what have we here, protestants trying to discern the Bible. Catholics acting like protestants trying to enterpret the meaning of parables and scriptures which weren’t meant to be understood, Just as the apostles could not understand the parables until Christ felt it was time to open their eyes, so is it now, we were not meant to undertstand what many of the things Jesus Christ said when he quoted them. I hear catholics and protestants saying it means this, or it means that. If Christ wanted us to understand what he said, he would have said it in a manner which we would be able to understand it. Just like the apostles, we don’t understand which we were not meant to understand until Christ wishes it to be. The theologians can not understand, how much less, we, that possess less knowledge than they. I hear of the “second coming” and the "third coming, which I could care less about, because I and all others were not meant to understand when it might be and all the details concerning it. How often I wondered why Jesus was not faithful to his promises, such as “anything you ask for of the Father or myself in My name, will be granted to you”. I do not quote this verbatim, by in general terms to indicate when Jesus indicated Himself and the Father. When I read the Bible, which I have read for over fifty years, I do not try to enterpret it, but enjoy it. When Jesus was making the above promise,He was speaking to the apostles, so does this apply to only them or all that pray in the manner He quoted.If it applies to me and all others, why have many of my prayers, which were well intended, not been answered as Jesus promised. Too much is taken out of context and there are things that were not meant to be understood. Therefore this means to me that we must live by faith. You can get different enterpretations from different people and theologians. Read where St. Paul states in his epistle that it is not proper for women to have their heads uncovered, nor is it proper for man to have his head covered. Many ,protestants, catholics and priests,and God know who all, state he is referring to hair. If this be the case, then men are to be bald. This whole scenario about the head covering came about when the newspaper reporters misunderstood the pope. The pope did not say no, not meaning that women were not required to have their heads covered, but no to their question if that is what he meant. The catholic newspaper, The Tidings stated that the newspaper reporters misquoted the pope and that women are still to have their heads covered. Why has the catholic church not addressed this in our present day and age. So much for enterpretations. It is plain and simple, but either they fear the response from women or they do not seek to enforce the doctrine. I believe that we should not try to enterpret the Bible, but read it and enjoy it, because you may not enterpret it properly to the joy of satan.Why do we have so many denominations, because they all have different enterpratations, and seek to pick and choose, and select what satisfies their earthly desires.As a Jesuit priest told me, the second coming is for each one of us when we die.There may be a general second coming, and what it entails, no one really knows. From what I have read in so many books, magazines and articles, there is to be a second coming where the world will be cleansed, and there will be 1000 years of peace. After that period, when the world falls back into its same old pattern of sin, there is to be a third coming, and what it entails is too profound for me to comprehend, as well as the theologians.To me, just live each day as it is your last, and stop worrying about the first, second or third coming,“end of the world”. Most of us will not see it anyway, so why worry about something we may never experience.Our protestant brethen seek, more-so than catholics to enterpret the Apocalypse,“Revelation”. I say good luck, because it is too symbolic and too profound for anyone to comprehend. I read it, enjoy it, but do not understand it, like many other parts of the Bible.

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#22

I don’t like how so many preterist say Catholics are evil and the pope is anti-christ. Give me a break. If one were to convince me that Catholicism or the Greek Orthodox Church are wrong I wouldn’t be a christian. For what? Which 20,000 plus denomination should I choose? I’d most soon rather become an agnostic. Anyhow, the end times is interesting among preterism. And again, can anyone explain these verses?

Matt.24:34 “Truly I say to you this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”

Matt. 16:27-28; “For the son of man is about to come in the glory of His father with His angels, and will then recompense every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those standing here who shall not taste death until they see the son of man coming in His kingdom.”

1 Peter 4:7; “The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.”

James 5:8; “You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.”

These, plus many more I didn’t quote, really do seem to say that the end IS at hand, and not a distant 2000 years (or 3000 perhaps, when we have flying cars and space travel, lol) in the future. That Christ is giving them hope for redemption and deliverance.

Then again, as I think about it, is this the kind of hope Christians were looking for? To await a massive destruction upon the Holy City in 70 A.D. where murder, and death were all around. Only to END the Holy City and CONTINUE on with MORE additional death from Pagan Rome?? That’s also interesting and makes for little hope regarding redemtion.

But again, what could these verses I quoted mean if not talking about Jerusalem 70 A.D.?

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#23

John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: … Look, he is coming with the clouds Revelation 1:7 (about 70 A.D.)

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#24

Don’t worry about the bold section you read about. The Catholic Church has unanimously rejected millenialism. I would not worry about the rest either, as long as we are living a faithful life. The correct enterpretations are available though, and they explain how we must live and the consequences for not doing so. God bless and happy reading.

Peace,

Ryan :slight_smile:

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#25

I Thess 4
15According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Christ shall come again to judge the living and the dead and at that time we will be cought up with him and The Chnurch Triumphant in the air. Then we will be with Christ forever. If Christ has come back we would not still be here. But he is coming. There will be no rapture seven years before he comes but he is still coming.

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#26

All preterists believe that Nero was the antichrist. There is no denomination that is full Preterist so your usual arguements do not apply.

Redemption is in Christ and Christ alone.

Considering Preterist Theology makes the most sense of Scripture to me I think it should at least be looked at and understood before throwing it away.

I accept Rome as being Christian but I would rather understand the Bible on my own, thank you. :smiley:

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#27

This is my take as well, reinforced by Currie’s excellent “Rapture”.

Keep in mind that God’s actions invariably echo. When Christ warned the Sanhedrin, he meant it.

In that light, he was warning his friends that the world they knew—the world of the Temple, of unfettered Jewish worship of God among them, would end before they passed away. Seen from their perspective, this made sense.

Christ will come again, when the curtain will draw down upon Christians as once it drew down upon Jews. The Temple has never been rebuilt, a not-insignificant fact for this point of view.

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#28

Nero and his persecution of Christians are referenced in Revelation. In that sense, he is the anti-Christ of his era, which is a foreshadowing of the anti-Christ still to come, at the end of days.

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#29

There is nothing in scripture I’m aware of that indicates Jesus’ return will be secret or quiet, quite the opposite. There will be a trumpet blast and a shout. There were still people around in 70 AD that would have recognized Jesus if He came back. Many believe that Israel becoming a nation is also key to the timing of Jesus’ return.

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#30

Yes, that is an excellent book.

TJKelley

There is nothing in scripture I’m aware of that indicates Jesus’ return will be secret or quiet, quite the opposite. There will be a trumpet blast and a shout. There were still people around in 70 AD that would have recognized Jesus if He came back. Many believe that Israel becoming a nation is also key to the timing of Jesus’ return.

I don’t think anyone here is suggesting that Jesus returned physically in 70 A.D. Take this scripture for example.

But Jesus was silent. Then the high priest said to him, “I order you to tell us under oath before the living God whether you are the Messiah, the Son of God.” Jesus said to him in reply, “You have said so. But I tell you: From now on you will see ‘the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power’ and ‘coming on the clouds of heaven.’” (Mat 26:63-64)

Jesus was talking to the high priest and the Sanhedrin. After His crucifixion did they actually see Jesus seated at God’s right hand and coming on the clouds?

Physically, I’m sure they did not “see” Jesus this way. Many of us are suggesting that coming on the clouds is execution of Jesus judgment of them. The event surrounding 70 A.D. would be the fulfillment of this verse, which inturn points to the physical judgment of the entire world at the end of time.

Take this verse for example. clouds signify the glory of God the Judge.

After the death of Aaron’s two sons, who died when they approached the LORD’S presence, the LORD spoke to Moses and said to him, "Tell your brother Aaron that he is not to come whenever he pleases into the sanctuary, inside the veil, in front of the propitiatory on the ark; otherwise, when I reveal myself in a cloud above the propitiatory, he will die. (Lev 16:1-2)

Hope that makes sense.

Peace,

Ryan :slight_smile:

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#31

I will share my two cents for now:

Preterists and Futurists are alike in this regard: mainly, they are ACCOUNTANTS.

Spiritual Historicists, and, imho, Christ, therefore, is like a MATHEMATICIAN.

And the humorous thing in this analogy is that is a really funny and appropriate way to symbolize what Jesus was to the Sadduccees and Pharisees, respectively.

And today, IOW, Futurists are quite like PHARISAICAL accountants, and Preterists, are really alot like SADDUCAICAL accountants.

For the Pharisees surely argued, “whose wife will she be [in the Resurrection]”, and the Sadduccees laughed, perhaps understandably, at this folly, but used it as an excuse to doubt, or at least, take the other extreme.

And what was Christ’s response? Hypocrites! You do not know what you are talking about. For how can mere accountants of either form of hypocrisy, attempt to reprimand a mathematician?

Funny thing this is. Other examples, are the Breakfast Club. The criminal, who is also the shop boy, who merely ASSEMBLES the Lamp, dares not only to brag, but even REPRIMAND the nerd, who is the physicist. The nerd says, “without physics, there would be no lamps!” And the criminal says, “And without Lamps there would be no light!” But before the nerd could put the criminal in his place, and show the ultimate defeat of the criminal, by saying, “And therefore without physics there would be no light!”, the princess (Molly Ringwald) interrupts, with her soft heart that would rather not think and therefore enter the conflict, “Stop it guys, it proves nothing.”

And this is how I interpret this: the nerd is Christ, the criminal is a Pharisee, and Molly Ringwald is the Sadduccee.

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#32

:confused:

lol

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#33

Is the first person of the Trinity the principal?

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#34

:stuck_out_tongue: good one! but of course, all analogies fall apart eventually.

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#35

Actually, that definitely breaks the analogy, I agree, he was a real jerk, and a moron.

:stuck_out_tongue:

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#36

There is nothing general about the Second Coming and is very likely to happen in our life time. Yes, we should live our lives like He won’t be returning for a long time. Nero was not the anti-christ but had the anti-christ spirit, for sure; an evil and insane man.
As EastAnglican posted, Thess has something to say about the
2nd coming.

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#37

Jesus Promised that He and His Father would make their home in believers. First of all let’s be very clear that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One God. Where ever one is the other two are there also. If you deny the presence of God it would seem that you do not know Him.

The Idea that Jesus must return in a “physical body” is based on the “this same Jesus” verse in acts. There is no reason whatsoever to interpret that verse to mean “a physical body”. The Bible clearly says that “God is spirit” and that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God”.

If it was not the same Jesus at Pentacost that indwelt the believers then whose spirit was it???

Preterist simple believe that God is in control and actively ruling earth with an iron secpter now. Much of what we call evil is simply Gods hand being active in judgment against mans sin. This is a Good world and the only problem is that man denies God is here so it makes it easier for him to sin. Acknowledging that God is present is a tremendious safeguard for Christians.

Denying Gods presence just has to be the devils work.
The Good shepherd never abandons the flock.

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#38

The Good Shepherd doesn’t commit evil acts, either, which is why I will never buy into the “Holy Tyranny” view of the preterists.

The world is not a puppet show. It is a battlefield.

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#39

Way to go Taffy. Been communicating long??:smiley:

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#40

I dunno, I recently finished treatment for my third primary cancer, and some factoids in my pathology report aren’t good statistically for my long term prognosis, though of course I’m doing what I can…so given this situation, I am more concerned about Christ coming for me than Christ coming for everybody. :smiley:

I love the Memorial Acclamation–right smack dab in our Liturgy of the Eucharist–Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again! The present moment caught between the already and the not-yet.

I also dearly love the Embolism: Deliver us Lord from every evil, and grant us PEACE in our day, and in your mercy keep us free from sin, and PROTECT US FROM ALL ANXIETY AS WE WAIT IN JOYFUL HOPE FOR THE COMING OF OUR SAVIOR!

One thing in my discernment of spirits about those folks who are all worked up about the Rapture is that they are full of anxiety and have no peace. Sometimes a prideful presumption is evident. So this theory fails the discernment of spirits test, because it produces bad fruits.

Count this godgrrl in the JOYFUL HOPE crowd!!! :thumbsup:

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