The Pope is not head of Church...this and that...yadda yadda yadda....!


#1

Some person just asked me why I left for Catholic, etc. :rolleyes:

And they also said that they think that the CC is swayed away from truth…hold on…let me go find the darn quote! Maybe you guys could help me give them a good response?:ehh:

Quote:

"I feel that the Catholic church has swayed away from the Truth. The Pope is not the head ot the Church. Jesus Christ is head of the Church, and if Catholics continue to think that the pope has more authority then that’s false worship.

Protestants have really believed in the freedom of worship because we are SAVED BY GRACE, and not by tradition or works or whatever the Pope says.

The Holy Bible is the word of God, not edicts by the Pope or writings.

**The Word of God is our only authoritative source of Eternal Life through Jesus alone. **

**The Protestant Reformation came about because of all the heresies that has occurred with the Romanists. Purgatory, praying to dead saints, kissing icons, buying yourself out of Purgatory into Heaven, the additional books added to the Bible, and so on. **

**Martin Luther nailed the 95 Theses to the Catholic Church, and then started the Protestant Reformation. " **

Oh boy! :yawn: I need to start reading the Cathechism really bad! I should and it’s right next to my bed at my apartment! That way I can start defending the Catholic faith myself instead of always coming to ask you guys! :o


#2

Well YES Jesus is the head of the church. But he’s not on earth anymore to guide us daily is he? Jesus specifically made plans for his apostles to lead his church after he ascended into heaven.

catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Succession.asp

catholic.com/library/Origins_of_Peter_as_Pope.asp
"You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18).

www.Catholic.com has a LOT of stuff on the Pope and the apostles. It’s good reading.


#3

Paris, we believe the Bishop of Rome is the Head of the Church because he is the successor to Peter, the rock upon whom Jesus built His Church. We do not “worship” the Pope, nor do we believe he has taken the place of God. There is no false worship there.

The Bible created by the Reformation was created by man - not by the Holy Spirit. In order to bolster the claims of man that the Church was false Luther added words and took books out of the Bible! Protestants have relied upon a false document, created by man, ever since.


#4

[quote=LSK]Paris, we believe the Bishop of Rome is the Head of the Church

[/quote]

Only on earth though, right?


#5

I always say that the Pope is the visible head of the Church because Christ Himself IS the head of the Church.


#6

LOL

ask her what catholics believe, Paris, and have her SHOW YOU what document says this.

As for "Protestants have really believed in the freedom of worship because we are SAVED BY GRACE, and not by tradition or works or whatever the Pope says."

Why not get the catechism paragraph that explains what catholics believe for her, since it isobvious she has no idea. And pray for her :slight_smile:


#7

[quote=alyssa]LOL

ask her what catholics believe, Paris, and have her SHOW YOU what document says this.

As for "Protestants have really believed in the freedom of worship because we are SAVED BY GRACE, and not by tradition or works or whatever the Pope says."

Why not get the catechism paragraph that explains what catholics believe for her, since it isobvious she has no idea. And pray for her :slight_smile:
[/quote]

I did. :slight_smile:


#8

Ask them why their Bible has several books removed, AND WHY if the Bible is the ierrant word of God, should ANY books be removed ?

Also, Martin Luther’s 95 issues mostly dealt with the problem of selling indulgences (which were being overly abused, but were clearly practiced by the Hebrews as written in the book of Macabees- which COINCIDENTLY was removed from Protestant Bibles.)

Martin Luther did NOT object to Mary or to any doctrines of the Church concerning Mary.

And the faith alone doctrine is clearly contradicted by the Book of James (I think also removed in the KJV) which states that we are saved by faith AND good works. Faith alone is not good enough.

wc


#9

Paris Blues,

See here for my response to the need for a single guy as the chief minister of the Church…

Unity of Command … not just a good idea, but biblically established


#10

The pope is the head of the Church on earth. This has been understood since the first century. You can see it in Irenaeus’ writings when he says that all churhches should agree with the Church on\f Rome because of its pre-eminent authority. The Catholic Church does not teach that the pope has more power than Jesus. If someone claims that, then they have no idea what the Church teaches. The Church teaches that the authority the pope has came from Jesus, so the pope can only have what Jesus gave to him as the successor of Peter.

Of course Jesus Christ is head of the Church, but the pope is the authoritative figure on earth that guides Christ’s Church. He makes sure the Church remains true, and it has under the Catholic Church. I don’t see Jesus telling the protestants what to believe or how to worship, that is completely up to them. The only way they can say we are wrong is because they disagree with us, not because we could actually be wrong.

[quote=Paris Blues]**Protestants have really believed in the freedom of worship because we are SAVED BY GRACE, and not by tradition or works or whatever the Pope says. **
[/quote]

Read the Council of Trent on Justification. It specifically teaches that it is through Grace by faith and works. You are not saved by faith alone, that is said nowhere in the bible. On the contrary, in Matt. 25 Jesus says they will be seperated according to there works. In James 2, it says that faith without works is dead. It also says we are justified by our works. I will show you my faith by my works, you show me your faith without works.

history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html

[quote=Paris Blues]The Holy Bible is the word of God, not edicts by the Pope or writings.

**The Word of God is our only authoritative source of Eternal Life through Jesus alone. **
[/quote]

The canon of the bible was decided by councils of the Catholic Church in the 3rd and 4th century. You will not find the bible before that.

I would like to challenge this person to show me the canon of the bible from scripture itself. You can not get any outside sources to show it, only the bible.

I would also like to see where in the bible that it teaches this idea of sola scriptura. The closest it comes to the doctrine is, it says that reading scripture is profitable, which certainly is not the same as sola scriptura. It actually says in the bible to follow the traditions, whether by epistle or by word of mouth. The first century Christian Ignatius said to do nothing without the bishop and to treat the bishop as you would treat Christ. He was accepted by all Christians in the first millenium as a great saint and his writings were used by them too.

[quote=Paris Blues]**The Protestant Reformation came about because of all the heresies that has occurred with the Romanists. Purgatory, praying to dead saints, kissing icons, buying yourself out of Purgatory into Heaven, the additional books added to the Bible, and so on. **

Martin Luther nailed the 95 Theses to the Catholic Church, and then started the Protestant Reformation. "
[/quote]

Prove that they are heresies, what authority does this person have to claim them to be heresies? They read the bible? Read the councils of Hippo, Rome, and Carthage and you will see the canon of the bible in the 3rd and 4th century. It is the protestants who removed books it seems, from reading the early councils.


#11

[quote=Paris Blues]Quote:

"I feel that the Catholic church has swayed away from the Truth. The Pope is not the head ot the Church. Jesus Christ is head of the Church, and if Catholics continue to think that the pope has more authority then that’s false worship.
[/quote]

catholicchallenger.blogspot.com/2004/12/on-papacy.html

**

[quote=Paris Blues] Continues quote: Protestants have really believed in the freedom of worship because we are SAVED BY GRACE
[/quote]

, and not by tradition or works or whatever the Pope says.**

Catholics also believe we are saved by grace. The initial response to grace is faith, which we couple with works throughout our lives so that we may be given justification through grace. Tradition has nothing to do with it. I find it interesting that this person is levying charges against Catholicism, when his knowledge of Catholicism is made apparent by saying “or whatever the Pope says.”

**

[quote=Paris Blues] Continues quote:The Holy Bible is the word of God, not edicts by the Pope or writings.
[/quote]

**

The Bible is inspired- definitions by popes are clarifications of the deposit of faith, which is the word of God.

**

[quote=Paris Blues] Continues quote: The Word of God is our only authoritative source of Eternal Life through Jesus alone.
[/quote]

**

**True, but the “Word of God” is not confined to Scripture alone, nor are we sure to properly interpret it. **catholicchallenger.blogspot.com/2005/01/sola-scriptura-debate.html

**

[quote=Paris Blues] Continues quote: The Protestant Reformation came about because of all the heresies that has occurred with the Romanists. Purgatory, praying to dead saints, kissing icons, buying yourself out of Purgatory into Heaven, the additional books added to the Bible, and so on.
[/quote]

**

Purgatory=Biblical and Patrological
Praying to dead saints=Biblical and patrological
Kissing icons=Patrological
Buying yourself out of Purgatory into Heaven=Not Catholic belief
Additional books added to the Bible=Everything was “added” to the Bible, in that the Bible needed to be compiled. Early compilations of the Bible included the Deuterocanonical books.

**

[quote=Paris Blues] Continues quote: Martin Luther nailed the 95 Theses
[/quote]

to the Catholic Church, and then started the Protestant Reformation. " **

Ok.


#12

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