The possible differences between God's elect to Heaven and people who are "Born Again."

The possible differences between God’s elect to Heaven and people who are “Born Again.”

Greetings in Christ.

Let’s see the predestination to Glory/Heaven according to the teaching of the Church and the Scripture.

PREDESTINATION TO THE BRIDE OF CHRIST/CHURCH/ GLORY/HEAVEN

  1. This is an EXCLUSIVE election.

John 6:44 … NO ONE can come to Me unless the Father DRAWS him.
John 6:65 I have said to you that NO ONE can come to Me unless it has been GRANTED to him by My Father.
John 15:16 … You DID NOT choose Me, but I CHOSE YOU …

  1. The DESTINATION of this election and predestination is heaven.

  2. God has predestined the elects according to His DECREED will.

  3. This is an UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION. His election based on His ETERNAL DECREE ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE.

  4. The predestination and the salvation of the elects is 100% God’s choice.

  5. God provides the predestined efficacious grace (irresistible grace).

  6. The elects CANNOT lose their salvation because their salvation is protected by God’s GREAT AND SPECIAL GIFT OF FINAL PERSEVERANCE.

  7. The names of the elect, and their full number is completed before the creation of the world.

Scripture Catholic by John Salza.
III. Predestination and the “Elect”
Quote: “There are two types of predestination, TO GRACE and TO GLORY. … Predestination is either to grace (WHICH WE COULD LOSE) or to glory (WHICH WE CANNOT LOSE). 1 Tim.2:6 – Jesus Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all (not just for the elect). But ONLY those predestined to glory will be saved.” End quote. (Emphasize mine.)

PREDESTINATION TO GRACE

If we think in two dimensions: Heaven and hell, then all those whom God has predestined to grace end up in hell as Salza teaches it and rightly so.

But if we think in three dimensions, as the Church fathers thought and according to the Bible prophecies, the eternal future of the human race is in three dimensions:-

a. Heaven.
b. God’s Kingdom on earth.
c. hell.

The outcome of the predestination to grace is everlasting life, not in hell but in the Kingdom of God on earth.

We don’t exactly know the way God Saves those whom He predestined to grace, or with other words, predestined into the Kingdom of God on earth.
[CCC 847] “Salvation involves an acceptance of God, but it’s not an absolute that such acceptance be conscious.” – [CCC 847] Could give us some clue.

They are in the state of grace and their work is accepted by God as supernatural merit worthy of reward (not reward OF the Kingdom of God but reward IN the Kingdom of God).

We see that in Rev.11:15; Matt.13:2-30, 36-43; Matt.25:31-40. This judgment takes place after Christ’s 2nd Coming and the sheep will enter into the Kingdom of God on earth.

Continued on the next post

Continuation

This world at present is the Kingdom of Satan (Matt.4:8-9; Luke 4:5-7), but after Christ’s 2nd coming it will be the Kingdom of God

The outline of God’s prophecies that the KINGDOM OF SATAN become the KINGDOM OF GOD is very detailed in the Bible.

  1. The DURATION of God’s Kingdom on earth is described in Daniel 2:44; Daniel 7:14; Daniel 7:27.

  2. The time of the CHANGEOVER of the KINGDOM from Satan to Christ, described in Daniel
    7:13-14; Daniel 7:21-22; DANIEL 7:26-27; REVELATION 11:15.

  3. The CLEANING up of the Kingdom of God is described in Matthew 13:41-42.

  4. The LIFE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD is described in Isaiah 11:6-9; Isaiah 51:3; Isaiah 52:9-10; Isaiah 65:20-25; Zechariah 8:3-8; etc.

There is no doubt when Christ comes back the second time with His angels (Matt.24:29-31) and with all His saints (Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14-15; Matt.19:27-28), He will take over Satan’s kingdom and will be a literal kingdom on this earth.

Christ will rule in His kingdom with His saints (Daniel 7:13-14, 21-22, 26-27; 1 Pet.2:9; Rev.2:26; Rev.20:5). This kingdom is an EVERLASTING kingdom and will NEVER end (Daniel 2:44; Daniel 7:14, 27).

Rev.2:26-27; “And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS which I MYSELF HAVE BEEN GIVEN BY MY FATHER, to rule them with a rod of iron; …”

PREDESTINATION TO GRACE (ACCORDING TO THE THREE DIMENSIONAL VIEW)

  1. This is a GENERAL predestination, EVERYONE is invited to be predestined and to be saved, who are not predestined to glory/heaven.

  2. The DESTINATION of this election is the Kingdom of God on earth.

  3. God’s DESIRED will is to predestine and to save everyone.

  4. This is a CONDITIONAL election.

  5. The predestination and the salvation of the elects, and those who are chosen to be reprobates by rejecting God’s grace is 100% the elects or the reprobates choice.

It is up to every individual to accept God’s grace or reject it or accept it for a while and then reject it, but in this case, their names never were among the predestined.

  1. God provides every kind of grace to ENABLE all persons to freely choose between life and death. – Deut.30:19-20. The same principle applies to all nations.

God’s DESIRED will is to predestine and to save all other people as well (whom He has not predestined to glory/heaven) by predestine to God’s Kingdom on earth.

  1. The elects CANNOT lose their salvation because their salvation is protected by God’s GREAT AND SPECIAL GIFT OF FINAL PERSEVERANCE.

  2. The names of the elect, and their full number is completed before the creation of the world.

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE PREDESTINATION TO GLORY AND TO GRACE:-

BORN AGAIN. ………………………… BORN AGAIN. Kind of [CCC 847]
Elected to Heaven. ……………………. Elected to God’s Kingdom on Earth.

  1. EXCLUSIVE election. ……………… GENERAL election.

  2. Destination: HEAVEN. ……………… GOD’S KINGDOM on earth.

  3. God’s DECREED will. ……………… God’s DESIRED will.

  4. UNCONDITIONAL election. ….…… CONDITIONAL election.

  5. 100% GOD’S choice. ……………… 100% ELECTS choice.

  6. EFFICACIOUS grace. ……………… ALL grace which need to make a free choice.

When we think in THREE DIMENSIONS like the Church fathers did, and as the Bible describes the eternity of the people in the THREE DIMENSIONS:-

a. Heaven.
b. God’s Kingdom on earth.
c. Hell.

Then we will KNOW, the destination of the PREDESTINATION TO GRACE is not hell but GOD’S KINGDOM ON EARTH.

In my opinion: The two dimensional thinking is totally and unambiguously crushed by the weight of biblical evidence.

God wants to save everyone, He provides all necessary grace for everyone (reprobates included) to FREELY be able to choose between life and death.

In my opinion: Our apologetics should investigate the teachings of the Church fathers and Scripture on the Kingdom of God on earth.

I would like to have the view of the readers.

Thank you all in advance.

With love in Christ,
LH

Hello, Lion Heart.

You are a fairly new member here (welcome!) but I have noticed that some of your posts do not elicit many responses.

That’s probably because many of us here do not understand what you are trying to ask/say.

Your posts seem disjointed, and I find them very hard to follow, and they are VERY long.

Would it be possible for you to rephrase, in your own words, your own question in, perhaps, 100 words or less? The “details” can be discussed in the replies and responses. We’re a friendly bunch - nobody here expects you to consider every angle in your posts. You intend to clarify your opinion, but you only confuse most of us by preemptively offering defenses to positions that we Catholics have not opposed (and would not oppose).

This Forum is open to protestants and others, and they might oppose you, but you can respond to that opposition with a more focused reply (or stand back and let others do it for you - we will do that).

But you do not need to go on the OFFENSIVE. The word “apologetic” means to “DEFEND.” That’s what we do here. You do not need to anticipate and proactively counter any opponent - that’s an offensive position. Instead, lay the Truth of the Church out there, fully exposed on the field, and invite anyone to attack it (that’s a defensive position). Apologetics is a defensive ministry.

And we are here to reinforce you.

I should have clarified that Catholic apologetics is a defensive ministry. Many anti-Catholics are definitely playing an offensive game. Their organizations have names such as “Christians Evangelizing Catholics,” and their “soldiers” place Jack Chick comic books under the windshield wipers of cars in the parking lot during a Catholic Mass.

In English, the word “offensive” can have two primary meanings:[LIST]repugnant to the moral sense, good taste, or the like; insulting:*]pertaining to offense or attack
[/LIST] And they both apply to this ilk.

Much of the OP’s position is moot-because it’s relevant only to the extent that we could know with 100% certainty that we’re numbered among the “elect”, which we cannot.

Greetings in Christ DavidFilmer,

This world at present is the Kingdom of Satan (Matt.4:8-9; Luke 4:5-7), but after Christ’s 2nd coming it will be the Kingdom of God

The outline of God’s prophecies that the KINGDOM OF SATAN become the KINGDOM OF GOD is very detailed in the Bible.

  1. The DURATION of God’s Kingdom on earth is described in Daniel 2:44; Daniel 7:14; Daniel 7:27.

  2. The time of the CHANGEOVER of the KINGDOM from Satan to Christ, described in Daniel
    7:13-14; Daniel 7:21-22; DANIEL 7:26-27; REVELATION 11:15.

  3. The CLEANING up of the Kingdom of God is described in Matthew 13:41-42.

  4. The LIFE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD is described in Isaiah 11:6-9; Isaiah 51:3; Isaiah 52:9-10; Isaiah 65:20-25; Zechariah 8:3-8; etc.

There is no doubt when Christ comes back the second time with His angels (Matt.24:29-31) and with all His saints (Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14-15; Matt.19:27-28), He will take over Satan’s kingdom and will be a literal kingdom on this earth.

Christ will rule in His kingdom with His saints (Daniel 7:13-14, 21-22, 26-27; 1 Pet.2:9; Rev.2:26; Rev.20:5). This kingdom is an EVERLASTING kingdom and will NEVER end (Daniel 2:44; Daniel 7:14, 27).

Rev.2:26-27; “And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS which I MYSELF HAVE BEEN GIVEN BY MY FATHER, to rule them with a rod of iron; …”

DavidFilmer, do you believe the Word of God?
I believe your answer will be “yes.”

So, Could you please explain God’s messages described in the above Bible verses.

I hope you will not run away from the explanation.

With love in Christ,
LH

You would be correct.

So, Could you please explain God’s messages described in the above Bible verses.

I don’t presume to take upon myself the authority to interpret the Word of God. I am no Pope. I’m not “even” a Bishop or priest. I’m a mathematician and computer programmer with absolutely no formal theological credentials whatsoever. I am hardly an authority on Biblical exegesis. That’s the Church’s role. Why should you give a fig what I think about these passages?

So, tell ya what - why don’t YOU tell US (preferably in a few sentences) what YOU think these passages mean (in your own words), and we will tell you if we agree or disagree (and why). We will support OR dispute your interpretation (to the best of our ability) based on Church teaching, not on our own personal teaching of what the texts mean. Surely, you would rather hear what the Church teaches, than my own personal (and quite worthless) teaching.

If we dispute particular aspects of your interpretation, feel free to follow-up with Biblical passages specific to your version of those aspects, and the discussion can continue in a more focused manner (perhaps, and preferably, in subsequent threads devoted to the topic).

But, please don’t come here with 50 Biblical passages and expect anyone to do exegesis for you. It isn’t gonna happen.

Lion Heart.

The following is simplified but adequate.


These verses below that you have cited have to do with God’s prevenient grace.

John 6:44 … NO ONE can come to Me unless the Father DRAWS him.
John 6:65 I have said to you that NO ONE can come to Me unless it has been GRANTED to him by My Father.
John 15:16 … You DID NOT choose Me, but I CHOSE YOU …

You could add:

COUNCIL OF TRENT Decree on Justification (Chapter V) The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, . . .

God’s prevenient grace merely means God (not we) makes the first move towards us.

But this is the beginning of the process not the completion (Justification consists in both victory over the death caused by sin and a new participation in grace–but we must by free will “participate” or “cooperate”).

Man cannot make the first move.

[LIST]
*]God’s prevenient grace = God makes the first move
[/LIST]


The Elect” are those in Heaven from God’s perfect omniscient perspective.

God is outside of time.

So all who are in Heaven past, present, and future . . . . .God sees and thoroughly knows right now.

The theological term for this is, “the elect.”

We could state: The Elect are those in Heaven at the end of time and God knows and sees that right now.

[LIST]
*]The Elect = All those in Heaven at the End of time
[/LIST]
[LIST]
*]The Elect = God knows and sees them right now
[/LIST]
[LIST]
*]The Elect = We as individuals (on our own) don’t know who any of the elect are (except the Church can tell us–that’s what they do with Canonization for example)
[/LIST]

In this world (apart from a special revelation from God) we cannot have metaphysical certainty if we are going to Heaven or not. We do not know if we are of “the elect”. Yet God already knows.

This is a “hidden mystery” (or “secret mystery”) as Trent states.

Knowing how to define “the elect”, go back and re-read what you have stated elsewhere:

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA The predestination of the elect

Quote: “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, … has been irrevocably fixed from all eternity. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient.”

Q: Why has who is in Heaven been “irrevocably fixed from all eternity”?

A: Because God is omniscient and thus God is outside of time that’s why. God already knows the future. God knows who is in Heaven irrespective of time.

If God is God (and He is), it HAS to be this way. That’s all that the quote from the Encyclopedia is saying.

Greetings in Christ DavidFilmer,

I think you judge yourself harshly. I have read your posts, in my opinion, many of them quite good.

Thank for your offer. I might take it up.

At the mean time I have a question.
I’m sure you have heard of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. This is a false religion.

In the light of John 12:48; 1 John 2:26-27.
What you think DavidFilmer, when they stand before God’s judgment seat, are they personally responsible for the false doctrines they used to believe?

Even a “yes” or “no” answer will do. Of course I welcome your comment on it or any members comment as well.

With love in Christ,
LH

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