The Protestant problem


#1

Here is my biggest problem with the Protestant church, whatever denomination: Methodist, Baptist, Calvinist, Southern Baptist disguised as non denominational “Bible Churches” Fee-Will, Reformed Methodist,…etc.

Ironically being a Protestant, I’ll present my case:

The Bible is the word of God(I agree with this wholeheartedly). The New Testament was not cannonized till the second council of Carthage in 393(I think) This means that Revelations and Hebrews were still disputed till Augustine and some others pushed for their connonization at Carthage. (This is how I read the history, sorry to scholars if it has mistakes!)

This means ALL Christian Churches give total loyalty to that Council whether they acknowledge it or not!

Here is the kicker: Did the “authentic” church suddenly dissolve after that council? It could not have!!

If I made any sense with my rambling I’d love your thoughts on the matter.
:thumbsup:

Cristo es mi Rey


#2

It sounds to me like you are another example of a Protestant who, in becoming steeped in history is ceasing to be Protestant.

God bless you as you continue to seek God’s will in your life,

CARose


#3

I think I understand what you’re saying. You’re examining issues of authority. It’s related to reasons #10 & #11 from this list/article:

geocities.com/thecatholicconvert/solascriptura21.html

It sounds like you’re not going to be Protestant very much longer. :wink: We’ll keep you in prayer, and be sure to ask questions on your journey.


#4

That would be the Catholic Church there you’re talking about. Yeah, it stuck around.

What are you waiting for? C’mon over, the “water” is fine! Ok, we pour it on your head.

Subrosa


#5

[quote=CARose]It sounds to me like you are another example of a Protestant who, in becoming steeped in history is ceasing to be Protestant.

God bless you as you continue to seek God’s will in your life,

CARose
[/quote]

I agree!


#6

I agree 100%.

“Water is fine…pour it…” LOVE THAT!! :rotfl: :rotfl:


#7

Welcome to the Truth of the One Holy Catholic (yes, uppercase ‘C’ ;)) & Apostolic Church. If you have any questions about “our side” (the right side ;)) about Scripture and Sacred Traditions, then head on over to scripturecatholic.com for some great references. I also challenge you (if you have not already) to do some reading and studying on Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone theology) and find out if it is really supported in the Bible or not. There are probably going to RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults) classes starting in the Fall in your area, so you may want to call your local parish and see if they have any available. You’ll get a lot of good information from them even if you don’t decide to become a Catholic. God Bless.


#8

[quote=se~orcampana]… Here is the kicker: Did the “authentic” church suddenly dissolve after that council? It could not have!!

[/quote]

Actually, it was the Council of Rome, AD 382. Other councils at Carthage and Hippo following that of Rome canonized the same list of books.

Here’s another kicker for ya … the same decree also canonized the OT that Protestants reject. :think:

The Decree of Pope St. Damasus I, Council of Rome. 382 A.D…"It is likewise decreed: Now, indeed, we must treat of the divine Scriptures: what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she must shun. The list of the Old Testament begins: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book: Leviticus, one book; Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Jesus Nave, one book; of Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; of Kings, four books; Paralipomenon, two books; One Hundred and Fifty Psalms, one book; of Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book; ecclesiastes, one book; Canticle of Canticles, one book; likewise, Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), one book; Likewise, the list of the Prophets: Isaiah, one book; Jeremias, one book [included Baruch]; along with Cinoth, that is, his Lamentations; Ezechiel, one book; Daniel, one book; Osee, one book; Amos, one book; Micheas, one book; Joel, one book; Abdias, one book; Jonas, one book; Nahum, one book; Habacuc, one book; Sophonias, one book; Aggeus, one book; Zacharias, one book; Malachias, one book. Likewise, the list of histories: Job, one book; Tobias, one book; Esdras, two books; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; of Maccabees, two books.

See also:
How the Bible came to be–a primer - View


#9

[quote=se~orcampana]Here is my biggest problem with the Protestant church, whatever denomination: Methodist, Baptist, Calvinist, Southern Baptist disguised as non denominational “Bible Churches” Fee-Will, Reformed Methodist,…etc.

Ironically being a Protestant, I’ll present my case:

The Bible is the word of God(I agree with this wholeheartedly). The New Testament was not cannonized till the second council of Carthage in 393(I think) This means that Revelations and Hebrews were still disputed till Augustine and some others pushed for their connonization at Carthage. (This is how I read the history, sorry to scholars if it has mistakes!)

This means ALL Christian Churches give total loyalty to that Council whether they acknowledge it or not!

Here is the kicker: Did the “authentic” church suddenly dissolve after that council? It could not have!!

If I made any sense with my rambling I’d love your thoughts on the matter.
:thumbsup:

Cristo es mi Rey
[/quote]

Here’s a site to check out.

bible-researcher.com/canon.html

Make sure you look at the link that shows how each of the Early Church Fathers regarded each of the Apocryphal books. Hint: they didn’t all have the same opinion of them.

Also worthwhile F.F. Bruce’s book on how the Canon of Scripture was formed.

In brief, although everyone here is trying to help you, make sure you get input from various sources and make up your own mind - that’s why God gave you one!

Peace to you


#10

Y’all’s responses are most appreciated. Thx for the info.

I’m a definitely prayin’ about it. The Roman Catholic Church has been a Rock in these fast changing times.
I guess I need to pray for courage considering the family implications that would follow a change to the RCC!!

En el nombre del Padre, el Hijo, y el Espiritu Santo
:smiley:


#11

[quote=se~orcampana]Y’all’s responses are most appreciated. Thx for the info.

I’m a definitely prayin’ about it. The Roman Catholic Church has been a Rock in these fast changing times.
I guess I need to pray for courage considering the family implications that would follow a change to the RCC!!

En el nombre del Padre, el Hijo, y el Espiritu Santo
:smiley:
[/quote]

Just pray to be open to the truth and the Holy Spirit will give you strength. It sounds like, in your heart, you may already have found home. So, instead of ‘come on over’, I’ll say ‘welcome home’!


#12

[quote=Church Militant]I agree!
[/quote]

we can see why!


#13

[quote=se~orcampana]Here is my biggest problem with the Protestant church, whatever denomination: Methodist, Baptist, Calvinist, Southern Baptist disguised as non denominational “Bible Churches” Fee-Will, Reformed Methodist,…etc.

Ironically being a Protestant, I’ll present my case:

The Bible is the word of God(I agree with this wholeheartedly). The New Testament was not cannonized till the second council of Carthage in 393(I think) This means that Revelations and Hebrews were still disputed till Augustine and some others pushed for their connonization at Carthage. (This is how I read the history, sorry to scholars if it has mistakes!)

This means ALL Christian Churches give total loyalty to that Council whether they acknowledge it or not!

Here is the kicker: Did the “authentic” church suddenly dissolve after that council? It could not have!!

If I made any sense with my rambling I’d love your thoughts on the matter.
:thumbsup:

Cristo es mi Rey
[/quote]

No Christs church doesn’t disolve, it stays and it’s authentic.
Of course i suppose i’d be kicked off this forum for saying anything more!
My husband was.


#14

u see… protestants believe that yes the bible is the complete word of god and yes of course it was not cannonized till 393 AD… but protestants dont have loyalty to that council exactly… you see God worked through the authors of the bible in order for us to know his word… there is no reason that God could not work through the council to show us his word in totality. The “authentic” church you are referring to didnt not suddenly dissolve… the church of christ is still here and that same God that worked through that council to show us his word is the same God that works through us(those part of christ’s church) today in interpreting scripture.


#15

[quote=bkniceley]u see… protestants believe that yes the bible is the complete word of god and yes of course it was not cannonized till 393 AD… but protestants dont have loyalty to that council exactly… you see God worked through the authors of the bible in order for us to know his word… there is no reason that God could not work through the council to show us his word in totality. The “authentic” church you are referring to didnt not suddenly dissolve… the church of christ is still here and that same God that worked through that council to show us his word is the same God that works through us(those part of christ’s church) today in interpreting scripture.
[/quote]

So in Mt 18:15-17 where Jesus says to take an offending brother to the Church as the final authority, where do you go?


#16

[quote=bkniceley]u see… protestants believe that yes the bible is the complete word of god and yes of course it was not cannonized till 393 AD… but protestants dont have loyalty to that council exactly… you see God worked through the authors of the bible in order for us to know his word… there is no reason that God could not work through the council to show us his word in totality. The “authentic” church you are referring to didnt not suddenly dissolve… the church of christ is still here and that same God that worked through that council to show us his word is the same God that works through us(those part of christ’s church) today in interpreting scripture.
[/quote]

The point is, why don’t you think God worked through others who claimed that they cannon should be otherwise? Why single out this council as an instrument for God. And why not agree with all that this council has to say (i.e. accept the deuteros)? By what authority are the deuteros rejected? If you think that God worked through the authors of the Bible to write scripture inerrantly, then why did he not work through the Magesterium to declare the cannon infallibly?


#17

Se-orcampana,

You write:

"The Bible is the word of God(I agree with this wholeheartedly). The New Testament was not cannonized till the second council of Carthage in 393(I think) This means that Revelations and Hebrews were still disputed till Augustine and some others pushed for their connonization at Carthage. (This is how I read the history, sorry to scholars if it has mistakes!)

"This means ALL Christian Churches give total loyalty to that Council whether they acknowledge it or not!

“Here is the kicker: Did the “authentic” church suddenly dissolve after that council? It could not have!!”

Of course not. Why are you even asking the question??

If your chief problem with Protestantism is that, you’ll probably die a Protestant.


#18

[quote=se~orcampana]The Bible is the word of God(I agree with this wholeheartedly). The New Testament was not cannonized till the second council of Carthage in 393(I think) This means that Revelations and Hebrews were still disputed till Augustine and some others pushed for their connonization at Carthage. (This is how I read the history, sorry to scholars if it has mistakes!)

[/quote]

Well, Luther didn’t think Hebrews and Revelation were inspired. Some Protestans today still hold the same view.


#19

[quote=Shibboleth]Well, Luther didn’t think Hebrews and Revelation were inspired. Some Protestans today still hold the same view.
[/quote]

Martin Luther was an Augustinian monk before he left the Church. He suffered from scruples and had a devotion to Mary. Then he invented Sola Scriptura (Bible alone, no Tradition) and arrogantly took some books out of the Bible that he didn’t agree with. He also invented consubstantiation, which puts weird meanings on Jesus Christ’s words “This is my body…this is my blood”…calls them symbolic instead of acknowledging that God meant exactly what He said.

Have you heard of sola fide? That means faith alone. Catholics believe in faith AND works. We don’t believe that our salvation is assured; we know that Jesus suffered and died for our sins and we show our love for Him by serving other people (feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, spreading the Good News, etc.)
We profess these two creeds:

Apostles Creed
I believe in God the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He arose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Catholic Church; the Communion of Saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and life everlasting. Amen.

Nicene Creed
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation He came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will heave no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Welcome to the Catholic Church! :slight_smile: You’re in for a great adventure.

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne


#20

[quote=coralewisjr]Martin Luther was an Augustinian monk before he left the Church. He suffered from scruples and had a devotion to Mary. Then he invented Sola Scriptura (Bible alone, no Tradition) and arrogantly took some books out of the Bible that he didn’t agree with. He also invented consubstantiation, which puts weird meanings on Jesus Christ’s words “This is my body…this is my blood”…calls them symbolic instead of acknowledging that God meant exactly what He said.

Have you heard of sola fide? That means faith alone. Catholics believe in faith AND works. We don’t believe that our salvation is assured; we know that Jesus suffered and died for our sins and we show our love for Him by serving other people (feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, spreading the Good News, etc.)
We profess these two creeds:

Apostles Creed
I believe in God the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He arose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Catholic Church; the Communion of Saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and life everlasting. Amen.

Nicene Creed
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation He came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will heave no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Welcome to the Catholic Church! :slight_smile: You’re in for a great adventure.

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne
[/quote]

Okee-dokee… The reason for my statement was to show that the original premise of the argument had a small flaw.

Have I heard of Sola Fide?

I am guessing that quite a few people on this board laughed when they read that question about me…. I might suggest you do a search on some of my posts in that area.


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